Why Not? & What If?

S2E3 - Lonely at the Top: C-Suite Leadership Energy, Psychological Safety & Coaching That Actually Helps

• Siobhan & Andy • Season 2 • Episode 3

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C-suite roles are supposed to be the pinnacle of a career… so why do so many senior leaders feel exhausted, isolated and secretly wondering if they’re “doing leadership wrong”?

In this episode of Why Not and What If, Siobhán Godden and Andy Cracknell sit down with change maker consultant Simon Phillips to unpack leadership energy – and why understanding your natural impact style can be the difference between burnout and genuinely loving your work.

Together they explore:

  • Why your energy patterns as a leader matter more than your job title
  • How tools like The GC Index® and Simon’s Change Leader Code reveal where you really add value
  • The hidden loneliness epidemic at C-suite level – and how psychological safety, coaching and honest conversations can change everything
  • Why “being nice” isn’t the same as being kind – and how real Playmaker energy often means inviting healthy conflict
  • The dangers of hiring and promoting on skills alone, without understanding proclivities and energy
  • How the Young People Index is helping teenagers make better choices about study, careers and self-worth
  • The link between game changer energy and ADHD, and what that means for how we design work and support people

Andy also shares how discovering his own GC Index profile literally changed the course of his career (and quite possibly saved his life), and Siobhán lifts the lid on why so many senior HR and people leaders quietly lie awake at 2am worrying about their people.

If you’re a leader, HR/People professional, coach or just someone who feels like work is draining more than it gives, this one’s for you.

🔗 Connect with Simon

  • Explore the Change Leader Code: changeleadercode.com
  • Find Simon on LinkedIn: search “Simon Phillips Change Leader Code”

💌 Got a topic you want us to dive into?
 Email us at letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
and tell us what’s keeping you up at night.

If this episode made you think, laugh or rage-text your mates, hit follow/subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear they’re not the only “lonely leader” in the room.

Got a story or a view? Email letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
— we might do a follow-up episode with your takes.

Siobhan:

Welcome to Why Not and What If. And I'm Siobon Goblin. An HM consultant, coach, and the one who listens through the noise to what really matters. Think of me as the cum to Andy's creative storm. This is Andy Kracknell, a creative whirlwind, destructor of dull thinking, and allergic to doing things the usual way.

Andy:

Thanks, Siobon. I'm also a marketing and communications consultant.

Siobhan:

And this is the podcast where we explore the messy, magical intersection of life, work, leadership, and all the bits we're not supposed to talk about. Let's get into it.

Andy:

Good morning. We're back. Still haven't been cancelled yet, Shawan.

Siobhan:

Well, we have we have changed from morning to afternoon, so that's changed the intro a little bit.

Andy:

No, it does a bit. Okay, so this week we are joined by Simon Phillips, change maker consultant, change consultant. How would you describe yourself, Simon? And good morning.

Simon:

If there if all my clients were as polite as you, Andy, then you can call me what you like. I I I'm sort of been in and around change management for for a few decades now. So that's what I help my clients do is think about how do they make change happen and how do they do that sustainably, which is where the change maker bit comes in. We help we we like to build change capability in organizations so that they can continue long after we're gone. That's the plan.

Andy:

Brilliant. Okay, and today we're going to be talking about predominantly leadership energy patterns, but how they affect influence or are affected by or influenced by the C suite loneliness epidemic that's hitting at the moment and burnout and those kinds of things. We've obviously got Siobhan with us. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. How are you this morning, Siobhan?

Siobhan:

I'm very well. I just came back from a weekend in Salzburg, so I'm I'm still on a high from that. It was the one of the best weekends I've ever had. So there you go.

Andy:

There you go. Best weekend, followed by your first love in the world, which is the Why Not What If podcast record.

Siobhan:

Exactly. And winning in life, quite honestly.

Andy:

There we go. Okay, Simon. So you've written a couple of pieces on LinkedIn recently. I mean, I've followed you for years, and we've worked together in the past through a profiling company called the GC Index. So we know each other fairly well. And actually, I think it would be safe to say that you, like Siobhan, have acted as my gob filter in various situations and pulled me out of the crap bin when I've dropped myself in it or given me some pretty sound advice. So, yeah, I mean, we've known each other a while, but you've written recently some. I mean, you're always writing incredible content. And actually, anybody who's listening, you need to check Simon out on LinkedIn because he's doing all kinds of amazing stuff at the moment. But you've written some pieces around the loneliness epidemic that's hitting the C-suite. But the one that really caught my eye was the leadership energy patterns piece. I want to just give us a high level on what that is and how it works.

Simon:

Where it started, and it was that was with that profiling tool that you were talking about. So the GC index is brilliant at highlighting how does somebody want to make an impact and contribute? And it looks scientifically right across their whole perspective, if you like, and gives them scores based on five proclivities, which is a big posh word for the stuff that that's all about energy. How do you actually measure energy? And for years I've been thinking that's awesome, that's great, but what's the shorthand? What's the like the GC index light, if you like? So that's what made me led me to develop something called the Change Leader Code, which focuses in on what's your top proclivity, although it doesn't talk about it in those ways. It just says, look, what sh what what energy have you got? What how would you love to, on a day-to-day basis, just make your biggest impact? So that's what led me to develop that tool. And when I was writing about it in a leadership context, because it's useful for everyone, whether you know you're just coming out into the job market or you're just thinking about changing roles or whatever, it can give you that top-level insight that helps you understand the real value that you add. And when it comes to leadership energy, that's really all you've got as a leader. You've just got your energy. If you turn up with incredibly low energy, you're not leading anyone anywhere.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Simon:

And so understanding where your energy lies and how to best utilize it and and and create the change that you're looking to do in your way is a really important piece of awareness. So it's a nice piece of the overall puzzle, if you like, that's helping leaders to lead us through these quite um transformative times at the moment. So um, so yeah, that's that's what I was writing about.

Siobhan:

And it's so it's so interesting, isn't it? Because energy is not something that anyone really consciously thinks about, is it? It's not like they think, oh, well, yeah, I'm really energized doing that. It's it's something that nobody analyses. It's really interesting.

Andy:

Yeah. I find the the the GC Index concept fascinating. And you know, I've been involved with that since pretty much day dots, so about 10 years. But the the other element to this, which I'll illustrate in a minute, is that the GC Index profile shows you how, like Simon was explaining, how you how you want to make an impact and contribution and what energizes you. But the bit that I find uh well not but and the bit that I find most useful about it is it also helps you as a leader understand how you work with others. So just really quickly, effectively the the GC Index profile gives you a profile which contains five proclivities. They're strategist, game changer, playmaker, implementer, polisher. The strategists are the individuals that see the future. So they engage others with clear direction that brings focus to action. Game changers are the individuals who generate the ideas and possibilities that have the potential to be transformational. Playmakers are the individuals who focus on getting the best from others individually and collectively in support of the agreed objectives. Implementers are the individuals who get things done. So as leaders, they shape strategic plans and deliver tangible outcomes. Polishers are the individuals who create a future to be proud of. So they focus on making things better, continual improvement, and the pursuit of excellence. Now, I thought we'd be we'd inject a bit of fun into this. So, and shout at me if you're not happy about this, but I thought I would share with our audience our individual GC index profiles. So mine is Game Changer Strategist, Siobhan's is strategist implementer, and Simon, remind me, your playmaker playmaker game changer.

Simon:

Playmaker game changer. Strategist, because they're all sevens.

Siobhan:

Um yeah, because playmakers are always even. That's so interesting.

Andy:

Yeah. Now, we when we were talking before we started recording, Shabon made an observation, which was that her profile is a typical HR profile, which is a strategist implementer. We'll come back to that in a little bit. But when Simon's talking about the the impact that leaders make, both within the business, on the business, and with people, that effectively is what the game changer does, is it gives a it gives an individual that awareness. So I know, for example, in recording this podcast with Siobhan, which we've now been doing for almost a year. Oh God, really? I know it's crazy, isn't it? Is that you know, and as our intro and as our you know, marketing bump around the podcast set is it says is that effectively Siobhan brings structure to Andy's chaos. So that's a real game changer relationship with a strategist implementer because the game changer is the chaos, the excitement, the energy, the you know, the ideas generation. And the way I describe it is I'm 500 mile an hour, 200 ideas a second. Siobhan takes those ideas, puts them into a structure, which is our purpose or our plan for the podcast or whatever it might be, and then she holds that focus so that yes, she lets me go off on these rabbit holes for exploration and stuff, but there's always a structure to the podcast most of the time.

Siobhan:

Most of the time, it's usually a theme.

Andy:

And then when I've worked with Simon before, and I made the joke just now that he is he's also the filter to my gob, is that Simon's view is that actually I'm I'm hearing what Andy's saying, but what impact is that having on others, and what impact is that having on the bigger picture? But he's doing it from a perspective of wanting cohesion and collective activity or collective output. So that's how the dynamic works between me, Siobhan, and Simon and I. Simon, let's go a little bit deeper into this. So the the leadership energy patterns, you're talking about how as a leader, if you have no energy, you're not leading anybody. That that makes sense, and there are situations where there is a risk of that happening. And it might be that you have a, I don't know, again, change a strategist in a role, in a leadership role, where actually what's needed is an implementer polisher type, where it they don't want generation of ideas and strategy, they want delivery and perfection on the execution. Just give us a bit more on the meat on that bone in terms of how these energy patterns work and what you're seeing and the kinds of questions you're being asked around that.

Simon:

Yeah, and and just to go back half a step. When I said if you've got no energy, you're not leading anybody anywhere, we all learned, me probably less successfully than most, that in school we learned that you can't get rid of energy, it just reforms in a different way. So, what I what I actually should have said was if you come into a team with the wrong energy, you're not leading them anywhere. Because your energy will be there, it'll just be coming out in ways that are maybe unhelpful. And the same can be true if we think about the five proclivities. If I come into a team with all of my game changer energy on hyperdrive, and that team is currently head-down, focused, delivery, driving, and and I'm coming in there with 101 ideas, that's the wrong energy for that team right now. Equally, if I you know interrupt a brilliant brainstorming conversation where people are coming up with 101 ideas and they all get excited about it, and I come into that conversation with really practical, action-focused energy that says, yes, but what's the point? Or yes, but you know, we've done this before, or whatever it is, it doesn't matter what the words are, the energy is I'm closing down this almost like esoteric conversation, and I want everybody to focus on driving outcomes. And so what the GC Index helps us understand is to observe those energies in action and then say, okay, how can I contribute to this conversation? And that's where it's so valuable to leaders because you know, I was just on the call before this with a CEO with massive polisher energy. And he knows when not to join in conversations, he knows when to let conversations breathe and not get too worried about the detail and not get too hung up on what's the eventual outcome. He knows he has to leave breathing space for his fellow leaders around him to really motor and to deliver loads of great stuff so that he can then mark it at the end. Um, but you know, at least at least they all have some fun with it in that group. And they they say, look, we don't need you in this conversation, but that's all done very respectfully, knowing that he's the best person to ensure that they've learned all the lessons to where they've got to, and then they can assess it and make sure that it's going to deliver everything that it needs to. So I think the the whole leadership energy piece is, and it's the same even if you do personality profiling, as opposed to the the GC index, which is way more than that, if you like. It's the same wherever you go. It's not about what your energy is, it's how can you adapt your energy to get the best out of the people around you.

Andy:

That's really interesting because one of the things that I've learned over the years, especially when I've been leading teams, is to your point, when you're in a moment of needing implementation, getting things done, task-driven activities, actually that game changer energy energy can be really disruptive and really destructive, and actually can also at times be quite toxic. It was interesting because I worked a contract with a large public sector organization a couple of years ago where I was involved in blind me, there was a number of projects. There was they were going through a massive change program, but there was also a rebrand tone of voice project, values and behaviors project. The marketing and communications team needed restructuring, but there was still the BAU, still the stuff that needed to be done every day. But on top of that, you also had segregation within the team. You know, there were very much siloed teams within Mark within Markoms. So one of the first things I did, and this was what really helped me as a game changer, was before I went in there, I sat and thought about what my energy is as a leader, which is the game changer strategist. So it's all about big picture, blue sky thinking, lots of ideas, creativity, innovation, that kind of thing. And it was a real tricky task because, you know, in the process of change, you've always got to be scanning the horizon for opportunity, but at the same time anchoring the organization and the people within it to make sure that they feel safe and secure and they've got that psychological safety and trust when they're going through a change program. And the dilemma I had was okay, I need to know when I need to dial up the game changer and when I need to dial it down. Now, my other challenge is that my implementer score is low. Now, that doesn't mean I can't implement, it just means that when I'm implementing, it takes energy away from me and it can dry me out quite quickly. So I become exhausted if I'm stuck in that, I suppose essentially, the tried and tested, what's the word I'm looking for? Pragmatic part of the workday. And I think this is where the GC Index really adds value. It's that as a leader, you nobody is a perfect leader. You can't be a perfect leader. It's not possible from the perspective of change. But what you can do is have that level of self-awareness that the GC Index gives you to take you to a point where you recognize where you really add value, but you also recognize where you need to step back and let others step in. And I'll use the three of us as an example. You know, if we we create the why not what if limited organization and we're out there involved in change programs, the initial part of the process, and this is a business cycle, everything starts with an idea. So you go into an organization, you look at what challenges they're facing, what they need from a change perspective. The game changer energy is in its element at the beginning. It's all about creativity, creating ideas, identifying opportunities, and that kind of thing. At that point, I would probably hand over to Siobhan and say, right, we need the strategy bit now. Here's a load of ideas. This is what the client needs. What do you see from this list of ideas that fit? Shabon would then convert that into strategy and start the implementation process. Now, Simon would be sat, I don't want to say overviewing. Simon, you might want to jump in and give me the right word, but effectively acting as the orc as the conductor of the you know of the orchestra, or yeah, the orchestrator, thank you. That's the word I was looking for, to pull everybody together. Now I don't know how to get the point across that strongly enough, but organizations that are going through change programs or going through any operational process, you know, recruitment, whether it's restructure, whether it's change programs, organizations that are not using the GC index for that process are missing a trick. Now, I'm not saying that from a point of sales because I don't use the GC index in my services, not on not so much anymore, and it's because I've changed what I do, so the context isn't relevant. I'm saying this from a point of experience, having been on both sides where I've used the GC index and delivered it, and where I've also been on the receiving end of it. And the empowerment that it gives individuals, whether they're leaders or not, is phenomenal. This stuff was ground or is groundbreaking, and there's nothing out there like it. I the question I want to put over to you now is when we think about the loneliness epidemic that's hitting the C-suite. You two will know far more about this than I do. But one of the observations that I've always had is that when I'm working with senior leaders, exec boards, and that kind of thing, it feels quite siloed, even if it isn't. And that's because it's a political football pitch. So there's a lot of politics at senior level. There's a lot of manoeuvring, gesturing, and everything else, because that's part of the nature of the job. But that creates a real loneliness, which is becoming stronger. And I suspect, and Simon should want it, it'd be great to get your views on this, but I suspect the COVID element will have had an impact on that when given that organizations have moved from being in the office to out of the office, and there's all that hybrid working and everything else, the people aren't together as much. But where do you see both of you? Where do you see the value in the leadership energy patterns and how they might support with this loneliness epidemic?

Siobhan:

I I just want to add something before because I want to jump in on Simon and say what you know what tools and solutions he's found and the people he's working with. But just to reiterate what you're saying, I've had two clients this week who have said to me they just one of them actually said it's me working with her, not because it's me, although, you know, I thought, well, that's damn amazing. I mean, not really, not because it's me specifically, but she said she gave me a testimony and said I've stopped waking up at 2 a.m. worrying about my people, and it's purely down to yes, I can have solutions and give pragmatic ideas and all of those things. It's more the fact that she's got somebody to talk to. And two people have told me that they don't have it's quite a lonely role. There's not many people you can entrust with things, everything's confidential. You you worry about who to tell what, you don't want to upset other people, you know. If there's big change coming, how early or how late do you tell them? That's always the biggest challenge. They just need they just we forget that they're human beings and they need that human connection to say it's gonna be okay sometimes. Just let's work it through together, you're not alone. So, yeah, over to you, Simon. What view what have you observed?

Simon:

Well excellently put Shabon because that's the s that's the same type of thing I was saying in my article. Is that it's the it's the nature of the job that you do not have someone to confide in. You know, you may have someone like that at home, but there's only so much of that stuff that's translatable and and adding of any value at all in a in a in a relationship outside of the workplace. The so that so there's that side of the loneliness, the the and that's why coaches and less so mentors, but coaches can add a lot of value to CEOs because they give them that outlet, the opportunity to test their own thinking and also to confine have that space to be a little bit uh vulnerable. You know, they they it's important sometimes for your team that they see you as being certain and strident and very forceful around the decisions that you're making. Equally, though, I mean I I like to encourage the leaders I work with to share some of that vulnerability. That usually happens best in facilitated conversations. Because I think if you go into a you know a normal board meeting unscripted and try to be vulnerable, it's it's it has the potential to get out of hand. Whereas if you can do that in a facilitated conversation whereby you're not the only one being vulnerable in that moment, there's other people sharing around the board as well, what they what they're worried about, what keeps them awake, it creates an environment in which psychological safety can can thrive. And whilst that's a bit of a buzz phrase at the moment, it it's always been there. It's just we've we're starting now to to understand these things and create language around it that makes it easy for everybody to understand and and be more accessible. But psychological safety means that you are able to come in and say what's on your mind and why you don't think something's relevant, why you do, why you think that you know your CEO's idea is a load of rubbish. If you haven't created the safety to do that, you certainly won't create the safety where people come and celebrate stuff. And the celebration is actually where the energy starts to build. So if Chabon comes in and it's a psychologically safe environment and says, I've had a brilliant breakthrough, I'm not going to keep it to myself.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Simon:

Because this is a psychologically safe environment. And I know that you know you're not here to do me any harm in my career. You're actually here to support each other for the collective good. So I I've created a bit of a framework around this, and one of the aspects of it is collaboration, because the reality is none of us achieve anything on our own. You know, Andy's acknowledged earlier in the conversation that this podcast wouldn't happen without you, Siobhan. And equally, there's aspects of what Andy does that makes this probably easier to get up and out and into the world than it would be had you sat alone in your, you know, in your room in your office trying to work out how do I get this to work. It's the collaboration that creates the magic.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Simon:

And it's the collaboration that leaders miss out on if they assume I can't share this with anyone around me. They need to instead create environments around them where that's actually the way that we operate. The culture is we're open and we're honest about even some of the things that are further down the line. Now, if it affects the people in the room, I've got to maybe swallow that one for the short term and find a coach to talk to about how do I share this with my fellow directors. But in general, it doesn't need to be as lonely as some leaders make it.

Siobhan:

No, I would agree. And the other thing that really resonated with me there is when we're talking about celebration, because I've been involved in loads of change programs, especially when I was in my corporate roles, and you just go from one change to the next and you don't stop and go, hold on, we did an amazing job. There would have been teething, but there always is with the change programme. There's always something that goes a bit swiffy. But you get to the uh to the end point when you need to, and then we just move on to the next one without acknowledging, wow, that was hard work, but we did it.

Simon:

And you've just reminded me of something there. So Andy was talking about the the business cycle and how we need these energies. The nice thing about understanding all of this, about the you know, the those sort of leadership codes, those, those essence of leadership is that it's game changer energy is not just about the initial idea and the initial enthusiasm. There are times in the process where we start getting a bit stuck. Things haven't worked out in the way that we thought they would. The original strategic plan was missing something that we just weren't aware of at the time. And now we've it's it's the threat is it's going to be derailed. At that point, you need some game changer energy in there to get everybody excited again about why we're doing this, to you know, to rev them up and say, look, there's another three ideas, and there's another six ways we could do this anyway, so don't worry about getting stuck. Let's get going again. And and the same with you, you know, polisher is not just polishing at the end. I mentioned it earlier, it's about bringing all of those lessons learned. Nobody else took the time to capture the lessons learned, but the person with lots of polisher energy did get them in those conversations so they can say that bit didn't work in that way, in the way that you're anticipating that it should. They they're the ones that like to learn the lessons of previous implementations. So, yeah, there's strong stuff.

Andy:

There was a post you put out recently, Simon, that forgive my tongue in cheek here, but I'm gonna take us down a rabbit hole here that really says playmaker, which is what your key, your primary proclivity is. And the post opens up with being nice is avoiding conflict.

Simon:

Yep.

Andy:

Now, way back in the day when the GC Index started, we did a series of talking heads, and one of the people we spoke to was also a playmaker, he's a guy called Mike O'Dell. Now, Mike has a very strong presence within the GC Index community around his views on proclivities and how they interact and everything else. And I think primarily he takes a view from an HR perspective. But this post you wrote really resonated. I'm I'm gonna read bits of it. So you open up with being nice is avoiding conflict. Now we smooth things over, we say what we think the other person wants to hear, and we keep the peace on the surface. But being kind is something deeper than that. It means keeping the other person's best interests at heart, even when it's uncomfortable. Sometimes that looks like offering feed forward. Sorry. Yeah, sometimes that looks like offering feed forward that may sting at first, but ultimately helps them grow. Other times it means slowing down to listen when you'd rather move on quickly, or choosing honesty over harmony because you value the relationship enough to tell the truth. That's the beauty of loving leadership. Kindness sits at the center. Now, the post goes on, and I'll put a link to the post in the podcast description. But one of the things that Mike flagged was when we were originally talking about the playmaker proclivity, this is again, this is 10, 15 years ago, it's it's very much driven by the collaboration piece. And some within the organization at the GC Index, maybe even all of them, would argue that actually Playmaker is one of the most exciting discoveries within the research piece of the GC Index when they uncovered these five proclivities, which originally started with the game changer. And Mike made the point that actually being a playmaker is not about being nice, it's actually about driving an element of conflict because without conflict, you don't get to the proper end result. It just ends up being a big dance around each other and everybody being careful about what they say. And to your point, Simon, that doesn't drive psychological safety. What it does is it undermines the process and it puts leadership in a position where they can't open up, they can't talk to each other, and they can't get the best end result because they can't talk speculatively around ideas, concepts, status quo, process, being pragmatic, driving continual improvement, step change, or any of those things. When you look at the value of the leadership energy patterns and how important that is, and you've kind of covered this off. Well, actually, answer it as a wider point, but specifically around the GC index proclivities.

Simon:

Sure. So uh my first introduction to the GC index was Dr. John Mervin Smith and Nathan came to accredit the the change maker group members. So this is like very, very early days. The model didn't even look as it looks today when they come and did that. And the expectation around the room, because of that initial lack of understanding of the proclivities, because you we're just being introduced to it to the first for the first time, was that one of our colleagues, Vander North. I don't know if either of you have ever met Vanda, you'd remember if you had, because she's larger than life and an amazing person when it comes to people skills. She knows how to you know work with people and get the best out of people and all the rest of it. And she's just the loveliest person you'll ever meet. Everybody expected her to have 10 out of 10 playmaker in the middle, however. Her scores were she had 10 out of 10 game changer, and that makes complete sense when you've reviewed her her career and all the different things that she's invented along the way. And I think it was two for Playmaker. And it was like, Oh, what does this mean? You are you actually superficial, Vandy? You're not actually a nice person at all. Um, and of course, that was our misunderstanding of what playmaker was, because it's not about you being the nicest person in the team. Now, obviously, I'm a bit like Siobon, you know, I recognize my skills. I am the nicest person in the team. No, I'm I'm just kidding. But my playmaker energy is very much around, as you said earlier, Andy, listening out for are people getting this? Are people understanding the intention behind why that person is saying what they're saying? Is this going to derail us from being able to complete the task today? What do we need to do to get back online? How do we need to get these people on the same vibration almost so they can get each other and really motor? And I think the orchestrator, the conductor of the orchestra is a great metaphor for playmaker because the conductor is not going to allow the drummer to come in two beats too early just because they're being nice and that drummer is only still learning or something. They're going to have a, you know, initially they're probably going to have a quiet word and say, This is where you need to come in. And if the mistake happens second, third time, they're going to probably say that in front of the whole group. You need to go and practice. We need you to be, we need you to be on time. And and and it's that level of orchestration as a metaphor, if you like, that the playmaker brings to any team. It I like the idea of thinking of the another aspect of playmaking is that tough midfielder in any sports team. The one who's shouting at their teammates saying, Come on, you can do better than this. We we need all of that energy right now in this part of the game. Let's get going, you know, and it's it's knowing when to say that and how to do that for the best impact as a team. And so the is that cohesion, is that team delivery, if you like, that the the playmaker pays attention to.

Andy:

There's an interesting point here. You you've sparked quite emotive reaction in me and what you've just said, because for those of you who don't know me, I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve, which at times is an advantage and at other times is catastrophic. Although I have learned over the years how to manage that in a professional setting. And that is that the CEO at the GC Index, although he's not known as the CEO, he's known as the chief polisher, is a guy called Nathan Ott, and he's a guy I have an immense amount of respect for. Nathan is a 10 polisher. So his job title is Chief Polisher. That means he's constantly in the pursuit of excellence. Now, one of the things that Nathan always struggled with, and and he openly talks about this, so I'm not saying anything about him that he wouldn't say himself to people, is the human interaction piece. And in the early days, he was very much driving with the polisher energy. So this isn't good enough. We've got to do better. You're not doing enough, you need to do better. And his intent was never malicious or mean or horrible or nasty. And over the first three or four years, and I think it was the first GC Connect. Simon, I think you were there. GC Connect is an event that they run periodically, which is a global event where they pull their community of almost a thousand GCologists together to talk about the GC Index applications, innovation, how it's moving forward, and everything else. Nathan was on stage and he did, he was MCing the event. And one of our team had been up on stage talking to the community about something or other. I can't remember what her presentation was about. And at the end of it, Nathan stood up and he thanked her for her input and the session she'd done. And somebody in the audience said was to the effect of, that's not like you to acknowledge that. And it was a bit of a quip, and at the time it was a bit of a sting. And Nathan's repos was that's a learned behavior. Now it raised the question in my head, my immediate knee-jerk reaction was, so you're not being authentic. But actually, that isn't the case. What was going on was the fact that, and I spoke to Nathan about it later, and we had many a conversation over the years about it, was that Nathan had realized that in the process of doing anything, there are times when you have to pull on different proclivities and different behaviors. And whilst they may not be your strong point, and I'll use myself as the example here, my implementer is a one, it doesn't mean I can't implement, it means I can, I just don't get energy from it. There are times when we have to learn behaviors to be able to execute or manage ourselves in the spaces where we don't have the energy for. So what you were saying earlier, Simon, I think that that beautifully fed into that piece around authenticity and Vanda. And I know Vanda, I don't know her that well, but I'll reinforce what you said. She is one of the loveliest people I've ever met, and I've had some real deep, meaningful conversations with her. Quite often we find when we profile teams collectively that people will sit there and go, I would never have thought you were this, or I thought you were going to be that, but you're not. Is this that you're not being authentic? It absolutely isn't. It's about that personal development piece, it's about self-awareness in the presence of others, and it's about understanding how our energy, how GC index energy or our proclivities mean that we view things with a certain filter. That in certain situations, and we'll use the game changer as an example again, like Simon said earlier, when you're in a pragmatic phase in a business cycle, you don't need that 500 mile an hour, 200 ideas a second. The game changer needs to learn to pull back their game changer energy and move into a space that supports that implementation piece. That's all about learned behavior. The point I'm trying to make here is that doesn't make you not authentic. It means that you've got that level of self-awareness to understand that your natural energy is not what's required at any given time. And that you need to, I use the word chameleon, but you need to behave like a chameleon and move or shift. Now, the the final point I'll make is that when you are in that business cycle, there are times to Simon's point earlier on where the could the game changer individual, so me in this situation, is just not needed. So they step out completely. But when there are points where you're in that pragmatic phase and something's not working and you need that game changer energy, a game changer entering that space has to remember the primary focus at that point is implementation. So you're not in that big blue sky thinking creative space. So they need to be able to dial up or dial down the game changer and not disrupt the implementation process. I I really like what you said, Simon, because it did it brought back that thing with Nathan, and it was such a powerful thing for him because I saw him go through that journey and realized actually I need to be behaving like this in that situation. And whilst it's not my natural comfort zone, it's something I can do and need to do. And I thought that was really powerful. Yeah, absolutely.

Simon:

And it I mean, that's a topic that's talked about a lot, where you're talking effectively, you're talking about your it's related to the point we were saying earlier about it's not about you, it's not about what your natural energy may be, it's about how can you contribute to the people around you. And to contribute to the team, we have to draw on all five proclivities. So, you know, we we always say so I'm a master geseologist, so it means I accredit others to to become geseologists. And and the big thing I'd like them to go away with is the idea that we can all bring all of our proclivities to play because it's not about our capability, it's not a measure of capability, as you were saying earlier, Andy. It's all about what have you got the most energy for? So I was I was trained professionally at Anderson Consulting, and that was all about crossing T's, dotting I's, and seeing a typo at 500 miles when you're putting, you know, uh maybe a training or communication program together. But polish is my least energy. So if I did that all day, every day, that I would be completely exhausted. Whereas I can sit down with people and talk about ideas like the three of us are doing right now. I could literally do this all day and go out and party all night if necessary. Well, maybe maybe I couldn't do the party all night, maybe but definitely through till about 6:30, no problem. And it's like because it doesn't deplete my energy to do that type of thing, it doesn't mean to say I can't raise my energy in those other areas. And and it's not always about learning, learning either. It's actually about doing it consciously. So when we're all just flowing and we're in we're in our space and we're doing some great stuff, we're not necessarily utilizing a lot of consciousness to do that. But if we then have to switch to a to a proclivity that's maybe you know we have less energy for, we can do it consciously once we're aware of that. And we can build the skill sets to be able to do that really professionally. So for example, you know, if if I to be a great strategist, not somebody with lots of strategist energy, but to be a great strategist, I have to learn about lots of different strategic models. I have to learn about strategic implementation and and risks and and alignment and all of the other aspects of that role to be a great strategist. But that doesn't depend on me having tons and tons of strategist energy. It's just that if I did have lots of strategist energy, learning all of that stuff is gonna be a whole lot easier and a whole lot more fun. So I think, yeah, we we've all got access to all of this stuff. The what I what I like, the reason I was so passionate about putting the change leader code together is it's just a starting point. Gets you into this conversation that we're all having and to find out what's your top proclivity and and work out, okay, so what am I going to do with that consciously as opposed to potentially unconsciously, which is what most people are doing with their with their top proclivity.

Andy:

I think there's a really important point as well to make here, which kind of echoes what you're saying. But the GC Index have a formula that they quote, and that is that your impact is your proclivity plus your skill set. So just because you're a 10 game changer doesn't mean that you're great at change or creating ideas. And to Simon's point, if you've got a 10 strategist score, incidentally the scale is one through 10. So one where you have least energy, 10 where you have most energy. The bell curve is that most people sit, is it four, five, six? Four to seven, yeah. Four to seven.

Simon:

Yeah.

Andy:

Yeah. So you can have those high scores, but it doesn't mean that you can actually deliver in those spaces, which is a really important point to make because I think there was an early on a misconception when people got their profiles of oh, I'm a 10 strategist, so I need to go and find a strategy role. No, you need to know what you're doing to do a strategy role.

Simon:

And you and sorry to uh add there, Andy, that there's no zero on that scale, which I think uh you know helps us all understand immediately that it can't be zero. We've all got energy for all of these things. How we like to deploy it is is down to us, really.

Siobhan:

And actually, as well, sometimes the higher proclivities can be a hindrance because you get I I certainly see it with me, with I've got a high implementer. So if I'm under stress or you know, feeling a bit unsafe, I suppose, I will devote default to implementing and I'll be an absolutely busy fool. And I'm really busy doing like I'm really busy doing stuff, and that's my that's my default setting, and it's not serving me sometimes. It's like sometimes I've got to stop and bring in my strategies and say, okay, well, why am I doing this? And consciously be aware of do of doing that.

Andy:

Simon, have you got any examples where you've worked with a client just to bring this to life a bit before where you've worked with a client and they've come to you with an initial problem, and you've used the GC index and the leadership energy patterns to help fix that problem and given given them the solution.

Simon:

Yeah. So and and I'm I'm the other end of the scale to you, Andy. So I tend to use the GC index now with most of my clients. So you know, it's grown and grown. And the reason is because it gives them so much insight and so much to to work with. So virtually all of the senior leaders I've worked with now in the last 10 years, they've we've done their GC index profile at some point in the in the conversation. And invariably it's opened up opportunities for them. So I was working with I was working with somebody who got a very similar profile to Siobhan actually, and and their concern was that they they just didn't get it when people were getting so excited about stuff. It's just work, you know, and and that sort of that pragmatic approach to life was actually coming into their personal relationships and work. And people was were detecting that they didn't have the heart for it, they didn't really, they weren't really fully invested. It wasn't true. They couldn't, they couldn't have been any more invested in delivering what they were doing. It's just that the way they talked about it was very much pragmatic. Well, of course we're going to be doing that, you know. And another person I was working with was massive implementer polisher. So very much on the action part of the of the uh model. Concerned. So you were saying earlier about people assuming because I've got a lot of strategist energy, I should be in all the strategic conversations. This person was concerned that they wouldn't be allowed, or or maybe people were resisting putting them into the top team because they didn't have any strategist energy. They were concerned that that's how it would be perceived. And I said, No, what value can you bring to a conversation that's wildly game changer strategist? Which is what the most of the board conversations were like. And that's when the light bulb went on. It's like, well, I'd be encouraging them to ground it and say, yeah, what are we going to do about that then? And you'd be pushing them to action, which is great. You know, that team would love that because they probably then want to see their ideas come into life. So you've got just as an important role to play in any conversation, regardless of your proclivities, because you know that that energy will have a part to play in any conversation. Every conversation is like the cycle that you mentioned earlier, Andy. Because if we're gonna, if we think about where did this conversation start, well, it's a bunch of ideas, need to get it organized, and we need to talk about it, and we need to bring it back to the point, and we need to polish it at some point so that the listener can get some sort of value out of it. You know, I do apologize to the listeners right now if they've been trying to follow up what I'm talking about. But it's like it's that's what it's all about. It's actually every conversation needs all of these energies. It needs, and that's why that phrase bring your whole self to work, that's what really that means. It's not about bringing all of your personal life into work necessarily, but it is about bring all of your energy because you know that's gonna ensure that we get the best outcomes.

Siobhan:

You maybe love this. I was talking about this this conversation because Andy actually polishes these podcasts, and you don't have a high energy for polishing, do you?

Andy:

No, I do polish. Yeah, so my my GC index profiles, 10 game changers, seven stresses, seven polisher.

Siobhan:

Oh, seven polisher. I didn't realize it was quite so high. Oh, that's good then. I don't feel so quite so guilty.

Andy:

And then I have a two two playmaker and a one implementer. There was um an interesting point you made there, Simon, which is around bringing your full self into work. And it took me to a place where I was thinking about how we complement each other. We touched on this in the intro, but there's a question flying around at the moment, which is all about leadership hiring people smarter than themselves. I I want to change that question because of a succession planning, but I think there's a more nuanced thing here around so I'm gonna change the question. Rather than it being should leaders hire people smarter than themselves, is should people hire sorry, should leaders hire people based on proclivity? Because the risk is with succession planning, when you look at the life cycle of an organization, they go through different stages. So there will be periods of time. So if you take a startup, let's just take a random startup. Your startup at the beginning is all about game changer strategy. But at some point in that process, you have to move to implementation fairly quickly because otherwise you just end up with a group of people sitting there bouncing ideas around and never getting to the commercial piece. Then you get to the commercial piece where you start delivering, and then your polisher energies come in and they start perfecting what you're doing. So making it better, putting in incremental step changes, identifying opportunities in the market where you can better what you're offering. So rather than go over the leaders hiring people smaster themselves, which is basically how organizations evolve. And if you take it to a core primal concept, humans have evolved because we've become more intelligent and we use more of our brain. Where do you see the leadership energy piece in terms of hiring the next person for succession planning in a business cycle when it comes to leadership energy? Does that make sense?

Simon:

Totally. And I think the answer again is nuanced, which is the same with anything that involves people. You've the you've before the GC Index, we did not have access to the data that told us what energizes this person. So before the GC index, if I was going to hire a new COO, all I would have available to me is what they presented to me in a CV, what I can read on LinkedIn, and maybe through the network get a sense. If I if I've got a good network, get a sense of what this person's like. What I don't know is what's the energy they're going to bring to this team. And that's why the GC index is like the last piece of the puzzle when it comes to recruitment. And it's why a lot of the industry bodies around recruitment are singing its praises because it answers a question that other psychometrics that are out there don't answer, which is what's this person's energy for contribution? And so, as part of the recruitment conversation, I'm going to look at the job role and I'm going to say we need this COO to drive business as usual because we've done all of our game-changing activity. We know exactly what we want to do. We've got to drive results now for the next five years. And that's what this COO is going to be mostly focused on. So I can put that, I can review that profile. Now there's a nice tool inside the GC Index platform which helps you to analyze the language of that. But even if I didn't have access to that, I could look at that and say, so I need somebody who's going to drive results. I need that strategist implementer polisher person who's got all of those real driving energies for delivery and perfection. Now, what I can do is look at the profiles of the individuals that are coming through the process and say, well, these three have got all the skills and the experience that I'm looking for. What proclivities do they have? And if the two of them have outlandish game changer profiles and very low on strategist implementer, as we've said a couple of times in the program today, that doesn't mean they can't do it in terms of capability. It just means that their natural energy is not going to be always, every morning, every evening, loving the fact that we're driving results and we're getting great outcomes. Because they're going to constantly be thinking, this could be a little bit better, not just from a polisher perspective, but I wonder about this idea that they're doing over there in the in the Smarty factory, even though we're making you know cars. They're always going to bring their natural energy into the conversation. And so we might then look at the profile of that last person and go, ah, this is a let's let's call them hypothetically Chavon. This person's going to drive outcomes. This person's going to make the business thrive. And now all of a sudden, you know, that's totally changed our hiring decision and made it actually probably likely to be more successful because that person's going to love the job that we're asking them to do. And I think that's where the proclivities come to play. So it's not about hiring people necessarily smarter than you is, but hiring people who are going to love the job that they're going to do. And that's why it sorry, just quickly, that's why it's come into my conversations when I've been talking about loving workplaces. Because if you can help people do roles that tune into them doing every day what they love, that's really respecting them and and showing that you care about the time that they're spending in the workplace.

Siobhan:

You you made me think because you're absolutely right. In terms of the individual, well, in terms of the organization, how they can, you know, really impact their outcome, whether it's profit or or whatever it might be, it will make a huge difference to the impact of the organization. But from an individual perspective, it's really interesting because I've got a 15-year-old and he's doing his GCSEs this year, and he's got to make decisions about his A levels and all the rest of it. And there's still and I think it's very old-fashioned mindset that is, well, you do what you're good at, yes, absolutely. But it doesn't go any deeper than that. So I mean, I remember with me, I was I was really strong in maths. So I was advised to go into accountancy good at math, and I did because that nobody told me any different. And actually, in the beginning, until you become like a corporate accountant, there's not much strategy either. There is eventually, but so it wasn't right at all. But nobody really, even now, we're still not having the conversation around, yeah, but where's your energy at? Yeah. You might be good at something, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to enjoy doing it.

Simon:

No, I know. And that's why the young person index is taking off, isn't it? We all know that how that's transforming the the opportunities for youngsters to see, yeah, where how can my natural energy be deployed?

Siobhan:

Yeah. And I think as a society, we don't really even think about it is that that whole midlife crisis thing. Well, a midlife crisis for me is because you haven't got somebody telling you what to do anymore. You know, you had your parents and your teachers, and then you have a start a career and you have a boss, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I've got a bit of ownership of my own life. I don't know what to do now. And I think that's part of it because we don't, that language isn't there. And it's it needs to be, I think, from a cultural perspective.

Andy:

This is really interesting because this is one of the reasons, and our listeners, regular listeners will know this. One of the reasons why I started, or probably the main reason why I started my own business up, because I would find so my career life was cyclical. So I go into a job, do it for two years, get bored, and go on to something else. Now, the GC Index gave me a complete insight and understanding into that, actually, to the point where, and I've spoken about this in many mental health documentaries and podcasts and everything else, the GC Index literally saved my life because I was at a point in life where I hit a crossroads. I was getting frustrated by employers or recruiters telling me, but you've only done like you've done hundreds of jobs for two years, but then you give up and move on. So what why should we employ you? And how do we know you're going to stay with us? Now, what the GC Index did was it explained to me why I was burning out in roles when the initial excitement had worn off. And it was because predominantly entry-level roles are implementer roles. You're there to do a job, get stuff done, and the strategy and everything else is further up the chain. And what I realized in that process, and and just going back to the comment you made earlier, Simon, there is a youth version of the GC Index, which is called the Young People Index. And it and it's personally, and I've always said this, I think that will far out accelerate the GC index because of the the it's at the most crucial point in anybody's life when they're starting their career that they need that understanding of themselves, and the power of it is phenomenal. Is that I realized when I took the GC index, the reason that I was burning out and jumping from one job to the next and being, you know, the disruptive pain in the backside that I was in an early career was because implementer was not something I wanted to do. Now, marketing, and I'm not saying that everybody who is a game changer strategist should go into marketing. That's not what I'm saying at all. But marketing was a sector that I had that allowed me to get into the creative bit, do all of the creative stuff, the strategy, and then hand over to someone else. And as a consultant, it's not frowned upon when you do that and you pass it on and then move on to pastures pastures new. So what I'm highlighting here is that actually there is another benefit to organizations, and that is that you get the best talent, the right talent in at the right time of the business cycle to get the job done. And if they have that level of self-awareness, and if the organization has that level of awareness, that people's, and this is not you know entirely across the board, this is just one element of it, but people's people can have a shelf life, they serve a purpose. The other side of it, from the individual perspective, is that I now understand that I need to look for roles that constantly have that need for creativity and innovation and strategy for me to remain engaged, which is why I've done what I've done for coming up to 15 years, because everything I do is creative strategic. Yes, there's implementation. Absolutely, there's implementation. And I've had to learn behaviors through coaching from you know general conversations with Simon. You know, you and I spent a couple of months talking to each other quite a lot where you were giving me that guidance around the playmaker piece in what I was doing with the GC Index. That's why that's so important, because it gives you the opportunity to really utilize your natural energy and inclination to do things, which keeps you energized. The risk is, is if you go into an implementer role as a game changer, you're going to burn out very quick and it's going to affect your mental health, it's going to affect all kinds of aspects of your life. So I think that kind of is a nice roundup in terms of the value of understanding what Simon's been talking about from a leadership energy pattern and what Siobhan's just said about, you know, this initial career route option being accountancy, which didn't play to her natural energy and inclination, because had she gone into that and stayed there, that wouldn't have been a career she would have loved and enjoyed the same way that I do marketing, comms, and branding. I think the only or the main frustration I have is that for me, the world is not moving fast enough and it's not seeing the value of the GC index both in individuals and in teams and structures and organizations as a whole. But there's a nice analogy before we wrap up that I want to throw into the mix, which kind of highlights the whole thing, which is that if you listen to people like Richard Branson, Steve Jobs, James Dyson, you know, all of the big high-level entrepreneurs, they're very good at understanding. And we did a podcast on the Siobon when we were talking about when founders and CEOs need to learn when to step back. Most people who start businesses have started them because they have a create uh they have a passion about an idea. So if you take, let's take James Dyson, who is a well known engineer. He is an engineer at heart. He's not an entrepreneur he's not a businessman, he's an he's an engineer. He came up with some concepts that he wanted to put out there. I worked for Dyson, it was a long time after he started up, it was back in 2010, 2011. I worked in their head office in Malmesbury in Wiltshire. And the ethos that he oozed through the business was I am not the CEO of this business, I am the chief engineer. He knew his place, he knew what value he added to the business, he knew where to play his cards, he never got involved in the processes that didn't energize him, that were outside of his skill set. And it goes back to that formula: impact is proclivity plus skill set. If you as a leader are working in a role which does not fit your natural energy, that undoes you in so many different ways. It undoes your authenticity, it undoes your ability to drive psychological safety with the people that report into you, it undoes your personal brand within the organization, and it undoes the organization's ability to maximize your its use of you and also your shelf life. And I think the key thing here, and this is where I sit and watch people like Simon and what they do, and my involvement with the GC Index was as a digital consultant, so effectively content creation. So I was always looking for these stories. But sitting and watching the way that people like Simon and Siobhan use the GC Index, there's a consistent thread that runs through the whole thing. Everybody I ever spoke to, every GCologist, every end user, every organization, every client, and it's that wow factor, it's that light bulb moment of now I get it. Now I understand why that job wasn't good for me, or this person I couldn't work with particularly well, or why I didn't succeed at this, or why I failed at that, or why I was really good at this, and why and why I was hugely successful at that. And I think people like Simon and Chivon, where you're applying where they're applying the GC index in their day-to-day practices, whether it's change, whether it's HR, whether it's ops, whether it's finance, whatever it might be, I guess this is a personal plea to the world. If you're listening to this and there's something not right in your organization and you feel it might be energy or you're not sure what it is, get in touch with people like Simon and Siobhan and just have a conversation and ask the question. This is the challenge I face. Is this something that the GC Index or that your services or a combination of both will help with? And this the final example I want to give is that there was a construction company, multi-billion dollar business, global organization, who were really struggling to get their strategic plan in place for the next five, 10 years. So they were focused heavily on the fact that they weren't able to scan the horizon, they weren't able to put a plan in place that would bring security for the organization moving forwards. They asked the GC Index to go in, they profiled the board, and the board were missing a strategic person. There was nobody on that board with strategic skill or strategic proclivity. The delivery was that an individual within the organization was identified, they were put into position, the strategy came flowing, and the business expanded. That's a really simple example of how this works. Now you can apply that across any business function, like I said, whether it's HR, whether it's change, whether it's whatever. But the power of this tool cannot be underestimated. And I'm just going to be really blunt. It really pisses me off that people can't see it. It just seems to be a complete avoidance of common sense. You want people to come in, you want people to engage, you want people to deliver for your business. There is a drive on organizations now to support things like mental health, employee well-being, and all this kind of stuff. This tool answers the call that every organizational challenge faces.

Siobhan:

I think to your point there, Andy, you triggered something with me when you said the world's not moving fast enough. I would challenge that. I'd say the world is moving fast, is this we're not cat we're not keeping up with it as humans. And we talk about this kind of stuff a lot. And I forget sometimes that other people don't. And it's it's that kind of awareness thing. It seems like it's it's like neon signs flashing in our faces, but for others, that it's not they're not there yet.

Simon:

Yeah, and uh yes, just to to wrap up on that one for me. The the client I was talking with earlier, they they've got 101 things going on right now, massive transformation in their business, they've got HR challenges, they've got legal challenges to overcome, etc. etc. etc. And then it's like, and where does this fit? And you know, that's our role, isn't it? That's where we can help them say, well, this is gonna make the the uh the wheels go a little bit quicker for you and help you with that aspect of it. It's our job, if you like, as the as the people who do understand the tool to help others understand how it can help them. So see, yeah, no, I'm hopeful. I'm really hopeful because I I we can see the beginnings of some real exponential growth around the GC index now, and we're seeing big organizations getting on board with it that previously felt that they could do without it, and now they're seeing the real benefits of it. So, I mean, that number you were talking about, Andy, I think is about a thousand GCologists, which are the people who are who know enough about the product to be able to share it with others, you know, that was literally about four or five hundred just 18 months ago. So that's a massive growth period. So I think I think we're getting there. And then hopefully the you know, conversations like this will inspire people to to find out a bit more.

Andy:

I think the other point as well is, and and and I love this bit because this was the pivotal piece with any of the marketing work I did with the GC Index, is if you look at the organizations that use the GC Index, they are the ones out there that are groundbreaking. So there are organizations like AstraZeneca, Santander, there's there's loads of them. They're the they're the front end of creativity and innovation in their sector. There's programs out there where the GC Index is being used, I've forgotten the name of it now, but there's a an education program that's being used in Europe, which is all around energy and sustainable energy and engineering, where they're using the GC Index as a core part of the education program within universities. There are schools out there that are using the Young People Index as part of their career development program, self-confidence boosting, self-esteem. The impact on young people of this tool in terms of their own awareness within their own environments is absolutely phenomenal. And there's an interesting piece that's come up recently, which we're going to try and get Dr. John Murvin Smith to talk to us about, who's the chief psychologist of the GC Index. And that is that they did some research around the relationship between the GC Index proclivities and neurodiversity. And one of the findings of that was that the majority of those who are diagnosed ADHD are high-level game changers, which, if you think about it, completely makes sense. For clarity, that's not saying that everybody who is a high-level game changer has ADHD. We're just saying that people who are ADHD have a high-level game changer proclivity. So the point I guess I'm going to close up with really on this is that it continues to be an exciting journey because we're still finding the GC index, they're still finding applications and the community of almost a thousand or a thousand plus that are using it continue to develop the application. So, as I say, Simon, if people want to get in touch with you to talk to you about what you've spoken about today, what's the best way of getting hold of you?

Simon:

Well, like you said, find me on LinkedIn. And if you just want to get into conversation and explore this a bit further from a gentle starting point, then changeleadercode.com is uh a way into this conversation, but also to get in touch with me.

Andy:

Brilliant. Siobon, have you got any final points, questions?

Siobhan:

Uh no, I think one of the things I'd like to do, maybe do a part two if you're up to it, Simon, at some point, because I would like to talk about how we use it all in culture as well. So um yeah, so maybe that's a little teaser for a future episode.

Andy:

Okay. Brilliant. Simon, it's been a pleasure as always. Thanks very much for joining us. And yeah, we'll uh we'll see you next week.

Simon:

Thanks both. Really enjoyed it.

Andy:

Well, that's it for this episode of Why Not and What If, where the conversations get messy, magical, and a little bit rebellious. If it made you think love or rage text you mate, job done. That's all we're here for. Got a topic you think we should dive into? Drop us a line at Let's Talk and why not? What if dot com? Seriously, your ideas feel this cannot be. Don't forget to follow the subscription WhatsApp LinkedIn and come back next week for more brutally on notificationly on page and always human competition. See you next time.

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Andy Cracknell

Co-host
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Siobhan Godden

Co-host
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Simon Phillips

Guest