Why Not? & What If?

S2E1 - Flags, Echo Chambers & World Peace (Kind Of): Social Media, Identity & Staying Sane

• Siobhan & Andy • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Season 2 kicks off with a bang. Andy and Siobhán dive headfirst into a conversation that starts with echo chambers on social media and spirals (in true Why Not & What If fashion) into flags, racism, homelessness, ADHD, Covid resets, world peace, and why assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

From Andy’s raw story of being homeless in the French Alps to the uncomfortable reality of St George’s flags and what they’ve come to represent, this episode asks: how do we disagree without dehumanising? What’s the intent behind the symbols we see? And are we evolving fast enough for the world we’ve created?

It’s messy. It’s challenging. It’s occasionally unhinged. And it’s exactly why you came back for Season 2.

💬 Got a view, or a topic you want us to dive into? Email us at letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
.

Got a story or a view? Email letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
— we might do a follow-up episode with your takes.

Siobhan:

Welcome to Why Not and What If. And I'm Siobhan Godden, a HR consultant, coach, and the one who listens through the noise to what really matters. Think of me as the calm to Andy's creative storm. Hi. This is Andy Cracknell, creative whirlwind, disruptor of dull thinking and allergic to doing things the usual way.

Andy:

Thanks Siobhan. I'm also a marketing and communications consultant. And this is...

Siobhan:

The podcast where we explore the messy, magical intersection of life, work, leadership and all the bits we're not supposed to talk about. Let's get into it. I think so too.

Andy:

that dropped you in it didn't

Siobhan:

it yeah

Andy:

So we're back for season two. Season one was an absolute hit. I can't believe that we got the audience levels we did. I know. For

Siobhan:

our little fledgling podcast. I know. Who knew? And

Andy:

the fact that we're season two means that we've not been, what's the word, cancelled. Yes. Which is actually what we're going to talk about today, isn't it? Because you've just said something quite profound. So do you want to run that again?

Siobhan:

And so did you. One of our off-air compliments. I'll

Andy:

tell you what, let me go back and I'll say what I said because it kind of leads into what you were saying. So I was saying that I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday about Life up to the point I went into the police, I lived in this cloud cuckoo world where I thought that everybody was caring and considerate and people didn't break the, you know, break rules or not break rules because I'm well known for breaking rules, but didn't, but didn't break the law and do all these horrific things.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

And then when I went into the police, it was quite a, quite an awakening and a realization that actually the way I think and feel is, is definitely in the minority if it's not potentially quite, unique and then you throw adhd into the mix as well and that makes it even more interesting but then you came up with something that you heard so go on run run through what you was you said

Siobhan:

so we were saying how this is where we're shocked about what we see in social media sometimes with people's comments and you get into arguments with people and i also saw another thing on a on social media about how we should almost be put in sets like you are at school so that, you know, you got top set people discussing bottom set issues when there's none of their business, which I thought was quite amusing. But at a deeper level, I was listening to an interview with Jamelia Jamil and she's quite insightful, I find anyway, about how media works really. But she was saying how the problem we've got in society now is that we're not all seeing the same thing so you could I could be seeing something in the news or on social media very political and I'd have a very strong opinion about that somebody will have an opposite opinion and I'll be thinking how can you possibly think that and she raised the point that actually they're seeing something different to what I'm seeing because the way algorithms work and the way social media works your sense and fed information based on what you've already seen and responded to and reacted to. So actually... I've only got one lens now. So it's hard. You're not measuring the same thing anymore.

Andy:

No, and this is the silo effect or the echo chamber effect that you get on social media. I mean, there was a great example of this on our local Facebook group. There's a homeless individual that lives on the street, one of the main streets through our area.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

He's got mental health problems.

Siobhan:

Right.

Andy:

And there was a post up about, how he had intimidated, sworn at a group of young girls and a woman that was with them. And you get the, what I refer to, and I shouldn't do this because it's political, but the Nigel Farage thugs coming out as a woodwork saying, let's beat him up. Let's go and do him in. How dare he treat women like this and blah, blah, blah. And I got really annoyed because absolutely what he did was unacceptable. Let's just be very, very clear about that. But not one of them was thinking about what was going on in the background for him. So why was he like that? So from my mind, and I'm very aware that this is just my view, but you have to separate the cause and effect. Now, the effect is he ended up having a go at a load of young girls and a woman and he intimidated them and he scared the crap out of them let's you know let's not mess about with it absolutely needs to be dealt with for that but the calls for violence to go and beat him up were just I mean they're animalistic those individuals don't even deserve to be labeled as human because you know who are they judged jury and executioner like excuse me what's going on there

Siobhan:

yeah

Andy:

that's coming from somebody who is married to a woman and has daughters so I I know exactly how I'd feel in that situation. I'd be absolutely raging about it, but I wouldn't go beating people up.

Siobhan:

No.

Andy:

But I... did some digging locally and found out that this individual's got serious psychological problems to the extent that he's been let down by the NHS, local NHS services. He's had problems with medication and everything else. So the question comes up about whose responsibility is he?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

Now, as a society, he's our responsibility. Now, whether that's through the taxes we pay so that the NHS is there to support him or whether it's people checking in on him, helping him with food, whatever it might be, there's the moral standing there. But I went back to the argument and I'm like, I have never read... This isn't word for word, but the gist of it was I've never read such a bunch of ignorant responses to a post.

Siobhan:

Right. Like...

Andy:

Who are you lot to say, let's go and beat him up? Had any of you considered what might be going on in the background for him? Absolutely, what he did was abhorrent. You know, we don't tolerate that as a society. But if we just go around killing people or beating people up because they've done something wrong, every one of you in here that's responded to this would have had a kick in and would have been in hospital because you've all done something wrong at some point.

Siobhan:

Yeah, exactly. And it's that added of like it's a bit like when you look at America let's fight guns with guns it's that same mentality isn't it it's like well actually your behaviour is just as bad and actually the response should be something different not the same

Andy:

yeah so it got I mean that wasn't that wasn't all of it it got worse because then I was accused of defending and sticking up for somebody who goes around abusing women and then I started getting death threats

Siobhan:

no really wow

Andy:

people were saying oh, well, we'll come around and sort you out. You're the same as him. Let's beat you up, blah, blah, blah. And then I, so I just, and Emma went mental when I did this. So I just put a response back to this. This was all in a public forum as well. I just said, here's my address. And I put my address up.

Siobhan:

Oh, I wouldn't have done that. Oh, you're brave.

Andy:

But the thing is, is, in hindsight, it was a stupid thing to do. But at that point in time, this is the injustice part of ADHD. I was raging about it. And I was like, come on, bring it on. Let's see what happens and you'll all suffer the consequences. I knew damn well none of them would turn up because they're all keyboard

Siobhan:

warriors. And that's what I was going to say. We know the reality is these people are keyboard warriors and they wouldn't do anything in real life. It's all very easy to say these things when you're safe at home, isn't it?

Andy:

That's it. But I did get a very stern lecture from Emma about not putting us at risk. And she was right. I absolutely shouldn't have done it. But that was the point I got to. But anyway, the upshot was that I then, it was amazing because of the number of people who privately messaged me who said, yes, we know that guy. Yes, he's got this problem and that problem. And without giving too much information away, I got quite a lot of information about him and what was going on with him. Yeah. Police were aware of him. NHS supports him. services, psychology services were aware of him. And then I got a letter or a message on Facebook from somebody who works within the NHS. And she got in touch to say off the back of the post that was on Facebook and off of the back of the challenges that you put back to the community, we've been inundated with

Siobhan:

contact.

Andy:

They picked him up and he's now in a secure unit. Now. That's what should happen. So what should have happened was somebody should have put a post up saying, first of all, all women and girls be warned. There's this individual in this location and this is what he's done. End of, right? Be factual. If there's anybody in the community that works within NHS mental health or there are police or there's this, that or the rest of it, can we have a conversation about what's going on? Because this individual needs help. And we also need to make sure that the girls and the woman involved are okay and that there's no knock-on effect, you know, and that's managed. But it just turned into this echo chamber of, it was almost Nazi-like. It was like he's below community. He's substandard. He's not human. And I'm just sitting there thinking, and that was the other thing, because there was a point a long time ago where I ended up homeless. I was homeless for about... Eight weeks.

Siobhan:

Really? No,

Andy:

six weeks. This was in the French Alps. So I'd gone over there. This is the first rabbit hole now.

Siobhan:

Okay, yeah. This was in the French Alps. Okay.

Andy:

No, I'd gone over there and I took a career break. This was when my boss at LV said, look, you're burning out. You need to go and do something a bit mental. So take a year out, go and have a career break. So I applied for a job working as an operations manager for a small tour operator in France, which owned three chalets in Maribel and Courchevel so proper high-end stuff

Siobhan:

yeah

Andy:

and the gist of it was they screwed me over because the operations manager they had the year before they wanted back but he couldn't get there for the first three or four weeks pre-season but they told me they were keeping me on but they just wanted somebody out there just to get the ball rolling and then when he became available I then got dismissed and kicked out of the chalet I was living in nowhere to go nowhere to go no flight, no flight ticket home, nothing. So, and this is one of my proudest moments. I ended up living in a cave at about 1400 meters above sea level in, it's a place called La Pra, which is just outside of Courchevel. It's one of the villages further down the mountain.

Siobhan:

Right.

Andy:

And I spent two weeks, six hour walk every day there and back going up to Courchevel and round to Maribel to find work, knocking on chalet doors and bar and all this kind of stuff. And I managed to get another job, which lasted me for a little while. Wow. So I've been in that position where you're homeless, you've got nothing, you don't know how you're going to feed yourself. You're reliant on the mental support from people to keep you going. And I look back at it with massive fondness because when I say I lived in a cave, I literally lived in a cave. It was a rock overhang, which was filled with snow. And I just dug a bed into the snow. So snow is actually a great insulator. so if you dig a trench in the snow and you have a sleeping bag and stuff you really warm it was quite toasty at night and I used to just lie there and look at the stars and listen to all the animals and stuff running around in three and four feet of snow anyway so it really annoyed me because the point is is that these people were missing the obvious messages which were the guy's homeless he's not well he needs help know what he's done it's inexcusable it's like that chef that's recently been done and he's used autism as an excuse yeah it's not it's not it's not okay but they couldn't see past this vitriol and it was and you could see them whipping each other up it was just a want it was wanton violence and aggression and there were women coming in calling me misogynistic and sexist and you know you think women deserve a kicking and the second rate in society I'm like hang on a minute wait a minute I am not saying that but look at what all of you were saying about this individual who's ill eventually we got to the end result but I'm seeing this time in and time out and we're seeing it a lot in the press at the moment people go from 0 to 500 instantly there's no logical thought processes or no how do we fix this how do we make sure that everybody's okay how do we sort the problem out everybody is too willing to jump on the bandwagon blame the police blame the NHS blame this person and blame that person rather than actually stick their neck out and go, I know something about this, I can fix it, or I can help fix it.

Siobhan:

Well, the other prime example at the moment, and I don't know when this will go out, but at the moment there's a lot of talk about immigrants, isn't there? And they're to blame for everything, apparently. Let's blame immigrants. That's a really convenient excuse. And that's a really interesting point, actually, when we're looking at people's viewpoints and opinions. So all these flags that are going up, the moment what's what comes up for you when you see all these flags coming up

Andy:

it's despair because go

Siobhan:

on

Andy:

i was going to say it's despair because i still have this inherent belief that as a member of the human race we should be working together to fix our problems. But because of the influences of social media primarily in the media and and my eyes have really opened to the the slants in media you know over recent years

Siobhan:

yes

Andy:

got corrupt politicians you've got politicians that are out for line in their own pockets then there's you know you can even extend that to the royal family you can extend it to any level of society at that end They're all in it for themselves. Absolutely. Very side-slide track here. On my way up to an appointment yesterday, the thought went through my head, and it was because I was listening to James O'Brien on LBC doing his Mystery Hour thing, which he does on a Thursday, where people ring up with questions and other people ring in and answer it. If you take... let's just convert all the money in the world to GBP. So British pound. Okay. There's only so much money in the world, right?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

All that we're doing in our day-to-day activity is shifting that money from one place to another, but it's all going in one direction, and that's up to the top. So the poorer are getting poorer, the richer are getting richer.

Siobhan:

That

Andy:

fundamentally goes against what we are as human beings, and that is community, that is...

Siobhan:

Animals.

Andy:

Yeah, and it's social. You see people like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and everything, and I've forgotten... what the word is, where they put money into...

Siobhan:

Philanthropy.

Andy:

That's it, philanthropy, where they put money back down the chain. Richard Branson's another good one for that and James Dyson. There's loads, right? But then when you look at the business people, which are the people that are never mentioned or spoken about, they're the ones, like the heads of the oil companies and the heads of the banks and all the finances and people, I'm sorry, not all, most finances that I know, they're all just raking the money in to keep it for themselves And they're sat in these multi-million pound houses laughing at the rest of society while they fly around in their helicopters and their private jets. And to me, that doesn't compute. It's like you could give away a lot of what you've got and still have the lifestyle you've got because they've got more money than they know what to do with.

Siobhan:

Yeah, and actually they make money off their money that means they don't need to make any more money themselves. They can give it away and still be earning. Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of this, like the riot, not riots, the protests that have been going on are driven by greed fundamentally. But the flag thing I find really interesting because I'm the same as you. I feel sad about it. I feel disappointed about it. But it has made me think a lot because I've spoken to a couple of people about this, a few people about this actually. And it's quite interesting. So I've got some friends who are slightly more extreme to me in the sense that they feel this is that extreme racism and it's awful and they want to go around and take all the flags down. I understand that emotion. Then they've got people like me who are just like, I don't like this. It feels really uncomfortable. It feels racist. but I'm going to educate myself about it. But interestingly, most of the people I've spoken to have been a bit more, I don't know. That's what they're saying is I don't know. But one guy was saying to me that, well, it's our flag. Why should it be racist? But it feels racist and I don't know why. And I also spoke to somebody who is an immigrant and because I was driving somewhere to do some learning and development and on this main road, There was St. George's flags everywhere, all down this main road, the most I've ever seen. And I was like, I found it really jarring. And I asked this person, how did you feel coming in? And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, with all the flags. She's like, yeah, what do you mean? I was like, how did that make you feel? She's like, I didn't really take any notice. I was like, interesting. So you didn't feel like it was like a dig at immigrants and things like that. She's like, is it? Is that what it's there for? She didn't see that at all. And I was like, well, that's interesting because you are an immigrant and you weren't feeling as despairing as I was. So then I was thinking, is this just because my newsfeed is being filled with this stuff? and there is nothing wrong with our flag right i go to i think some of this is a cultural thing i think we're just not flag flying people unless it's the world cup or something you know i went to america on holiday there's blimmin flags everywhere and i hate it i just find it all a bit icky and yeah and distasteful and we're a bit more self-deprecating so i think as a culture it's not really our bag so when we start flying it we're trying to give a message of some description, and it's never a positive one. But I just thought it's really made me think this week, put it that way, that I still think it's fundamentally racists that are doing it and putting them up because they're making a point that immigrants are the root of all problems in the whole world. I think that's fundamentally what started it, but... Is that just my viewpoint? Because that's what I see and feel.

Andy:

Let's dig down into that because that's interesting because I was driving back from the appointment yesterday and a car overtook me with a St. George's flag clipped to it. You know, the little mini ones that you used

Siobhan:

to get. Yeah. See, we used to do that when it was the World Cup. That's fine. Or the Jubilee. We're celebrating something. Fine.

Andy:

But it got me because my first reaction was, oh God, am I missing some major sporting event? And then I was like no he's racist yeah and that was an uncontrolled thought so that wasn't that that was my knee-jerk reaction and I just sat there and I was like what the hell are you doing to yourself like you're now convinced the bloke driving that car's a racist because he's flying a St. George's flag

Siobhan:

yeah

Andy:

I guess this is the flip side to your argument because I would actually say and this is slightly influenced by people like Eddie Izzard that the Brits are actually incredibly incredibly proud of their flag because we used to go around, and this is a little bit controversial, but we used to go around sticking it in countries and saying, right, we own you now. That was our way of claiming countries. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek humour, but this was the Eddie Izzard sketch.

Siobhan:

But that's more the UK flag. That's the Union Jack, which I think is different from the St George's flag.

Andy:

Yeah, well, this is the point, right? So as a group of nations, so England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the Union Jack is symbolic and it's symbolic of the empire and everything else.

Siobhan:

Now,

Andy:

my own views on the empire.

Siobhan:

That's the whole other history lesson, isn't it? The whole other history lesson.

Andy:

But the reason I make that comment is because I just want it to be known that I'm not pro-empire because I think it's a bit kind of slavey and racist.

Siobhan:

Yeah, colonisation and a bit, yeah.

Andy:

It's a bit ick and that's an understatement. But then when you boil it down to the St Andrew's flag or St George's flag or what's the Welsh flag?

Siobhan:

The dragon. I don't know what

Andy:

it's

Siobhan:

called, though. That's terrible. We don't know that.

Andy:

That is really bad, isn't it? Hang on. Let's Google it.

Siobhan:

Sorry to all Welsh people. Maybe we need a Welsh guest to educate us.

Andy:

Welsh flag is called... I can't pronounce that. Oh, it's the red dragon. Sorry. Red dragon. Red dragon. What's the Irish Northern Ireland flag? Northern Ireland. Hang on. Flag of Northern Ireland is the Ulster banner. also known as the Red Hand Flag. So that's the St George's Cross with the crest in the middle with the red hand on it, not to be confused with the provincial flag of Ulster. Okay, so we've educated ourselves there. Interesting. But... The bit that, oh God, this is really deep. So whenever I see a St. George's flag, I get a sense, I feel a sense of arrogance about it. And I don't know why it's because I've never flown a St. George. Hang on. No, I've never flown a St. George's flag. The reason I question that is because I used to sell yachts and on the back of a yacht, you would have the flag of the country, the yachts registered in.

Siobhan:

It's usually UK, isn't it? Oh no, it's a special maritime one, isn't it?

Andy:

Red NC. Yeah, that's it. And I think the navy is the blue ensign, but if I'm wrong, somebody will correct me on that. Yeah, so the flag thing is a bit of an anomaly for me, but for some reason, I don't... St George's flag... I don't know whether this is because I have a loyalty to the St. Andrew's flag because of my ancestry, because I feel Scottish. That's where my pride sits, is in my Scottish ancestry. So it might just be that.

Siobhan:

And I feel Irish. So again, we've already got an inbuilt bias, haven't we?

Andy:

That's it. But the fact that the comment was made that the St. George's flag is being flown by racists, I think that's a reasonable conclusion to draw, given that, as you said, as English, we only ever tend to fly the St. George's flag when there's a sporting event coming on. But then I've also seen pockets on social media where they're saying that they're flying it in protest against the people that are using it as a racist thing.

Siobhan:

Yeah, like reclaim the flag, because it's like, why should our flag be ruined by these people? And I agree with that as well.

Andy:

Exactly. And the other thing is as well, it's also, it's exactly that, it's reclaiming the flag, but it's also around this what what the flag represents and and it's a slight segue but if you look at the general sentiment of our governing society over decades and centuries we've always had an open attitude towards immigration and everything else because immigrants are a good thing for this country there's no there is no

Siobhan:

two built on immigrants let's be honest

Andy:

and they saved us after the second world war without immigrants coming into this country we would never have developed and grown the way we did

Siobhan:

absolutely

Andy:

so it goes back to the original point and that is that with everything in the media and on social media and these echo chambers and everything else it's very easy to find yourself in a position where you're questioning your own morals and stance which I think on the one hand is a good thing but on the other hand is actually a really bad thing because you can go from being a decent human being into an absolute scumbag because you're being subjected to this barrage of crap on social media that is then pulling you into that space where you're like oh yeah I get it it's the same as indoctrination and with youngsters that are converting over to Islam and I'm doing that in air quotes because it's not this is not the truth but they're converting to Islam and becoming terrorists because they're being brainwashed online I can guarantee you if you speak to any Muslim out there who is a proper true Muslim, they probably have the same sentiment, possibly have the same sentiment towards the name of their religion or their identity being misused to excuse terrorism. And this is the same thing. It

Siobhan:

is actually a very good point. Yeah, it is a really good point. It's becoming like the badge of a symbol when actually the real meaning is becoming lost.

Andy:

But there's two sides to that coin, because there's the side of... So... There's the side of, okay, when you hear the word Islam, you think terrorist because of what's being said and what's happening and this stuff going on. But I've got Muslim friends and you can see the despair. It's like the Quran doesn't tell us this. It doesn't endorse this. There's no whatever that reinforces what they're saying. This is an excuse. It's the same with this thing over the St. George's flag. The actual culture and and ethos and morals behind St. George's flag as in the country do not support or endorse this anti-immigrant, racist way of living. So this kind of makes a bigger point here, and that is what is going wrong with society... where there is this sense that you can go in and take something over and use it for you know a negative when its core symbolism is actually a positive what i'm saying that isn't there something around the origins of the swastika that it wasn't actually a symbol that was negative but it was taken and adopted by the germ by the nazis and used us there i'm fairly sure there was something about this i'm just

Siobhan:

gonna origin

Andy:

So the swastika is an ancient Eurasian symbol originating from the Sanskrit word, meaning good fortune, used for millennia in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism as a sacred symbol of well-being. It also appeared in ancient European and Native American cultures as an auspicious motif before its adoption by the German Nazi party in the 1920s, which transformed the symbol into representation of hate and racial supremacy, leading to the widespread ban of the West. Sorry, a widespread ban in the West after World War II. So that, there you go. Classic example of what happens when you take a symbol that is good and it's then abused and used for something evil.

Siobhan:

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy:

And that must have an impact on Hindus, Buddhists and Jainists because it was a sacred symbol of well-being and it was taken and used.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

to mean completely the opposite.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Yeah, how interesting. And also, going back to St George's flag, St George was an immigrant, wasn't he? I just Googled him as well. I couldn't remember where he came from. He came from modern-day Turkey. There you go.

Andy:

That's it. And let's be honest... I think you'd find that actually the majority of the UK population, their origins are not here anyway.

Siobhan:

No, absolutely. Yeah, we're all Northern European. Everyone's got French in them, I think, at some point.

Andy:

Yeah. I mean, we've talked about it before, but my origins are Italian, Dutch, German... and then Scottish through Viking and English. Yeah. So the English bit, the definition of English origin is a combination of a mix of Northern European anyway.

Siobhan:

Yes,

Andy:

absolutely.

Siobhan:

Yeah. So, God,

Andy:

this is a lot deeper than I thought it was going to get.

Siobhan:

Why are you surprised? I'm

Andy:

not. This is RMO, isn't

Siobhan:

it? It is

Andy:

RMO. Yeah, but... five or six sentence exchange and then this idea comes out of what we're going to talk about and then all hell breaks loose because we end up getting into something really deep but yeah it's but you know it this is the problem and in in some weird perverse way i'm kind of hoping that at some point we go through we spoke about this on a podcast before where everything collapses and we go back to

Siobhan:

yes

Andy:

pre-second pre-first world war because whatever the call is tech fails internet fails AI fails and we end up becoming reliant on each other again to survive where you have people with small holdings that grow crop and animals and they share it locally to feed each other and all this kind of stuff

Siobhan:

yeah

Andy:

I think

Siobhan:

we kind of reset ourselves every every few thousand years don't we we keep resetting

Andy:

yeah and I think I think we're long overdue that

Siobhan:

yeah I do I mean

Andy:

if you look at all the topics we talked about in season one

Siobhan:

I'm going to say something very controversial now, but that was, I don't know if it is controversial, but that's my theory about what COVID was trying to do. That was nature trying to reset us.

Andy:

Yeah. Yeah. And, and there is, and that's something we spoke about before as well, wasn't it? And you know, it's how nature is, it's out of our control in as much as that nature will manage us. And when we get much, it, you know, we'll do something. Hang on a minute. Global death figures for COVID.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

That's only 7 million.

Siobhan:

Well, the other thing was, yeah, so it should have been a high death rate probably because if you look at other disasters like that in history, it's wiped out millions. But also, for a little while there, it did change society, didn't it? We did have people coming together. Nature started rebuilding itself. Like, where do I live? We start to see loads of red kites, you know, the bird? Yeah. There's loads of them now. We see them everywhere. blimmin' second now. But before COVID, they were almost endangered. But nature's reset itself. So for a little while there, it was working, but we've gone back to work. We've forgotten about it now.

Andy:

Yeah, I'm just looking a bit deeper into this. So the estimated total death toll of COVID globally is 36 million. 36 million people represents approximately 0.5% of the global population. So So this is where advances in technology and everything else become the problem for nature, because I think you're right to an extent that that was nature's way of trying to reset us. But we jumped in with vaccines and everything else to prevent it from doing that, which from my perspective is a great thing because I don't want people dying, but

Siobhan:

you've

Andy:

got to accept that nature is a stronger power. But then it might also be that nature made a decision to do something different, so the reset was actually actually successful and what you've just said about red kites is a great example we had wild animals deer and everything else roaming through the streets of towns around where we are wow And nature got a boost from it. I mean, I can't remember what the figures were, but when they put the lockdown on, the carbon monoxide emissions, carbon dioxide emissions in the UK dropped by like 95%. There were photographs of China and India where they had clear skies that they'd not had for decades because of the pollution.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I remember that.

Andy:

So yeah, there's definitely something in that. But yeah, I think there needs to be and some people will say that there'll be civil unrest and then there'll be anarchy and that'll be the reset and then others will say you know Putin will launch a load of nukes and everybody will get destroyed and there'll be a small handful of people will survive on the equator and blah blah blah and then there'll be other people that will come up with other theories around how this reset will go yeah but I think it's needed if nothing else from the point that we're just not evolving fast enough to keep up with the technological advances which is why we're seeing this demand on the human brain to evolve where you get as you and I have spoken about before neurodiversity which is not a disability it's an evolution in my

Siobhan:

absolutely yeah I do believe that but we're not quick we're not quick enough I mean when we look at when you look at evolution it's over a long period of time whereas we're evolving in a generation and we just can't keep up with that speed

Andy:

yeah yeah yeah And this is why characteristics for things like ADHD, where they refer to web browsers with 20 tabs open in your brain. I love that analogy. Yeah. Because it is, it's the ability to... The ability to multitask.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

Violently avoiding the stereotype about women versus men. But the ability to multitask now is something that has become a necessity.

Siobhan:

Yeah, absolutely. And our

Andy:

brains are evolving to be able to do it, albeit we're not able to do it. I mean, it depends. There are times when I can handle five or six things on the go at the same time. No problem at all. But there are other times I can't handle one.

Siobhan:

Yes.

Andy:

Which is you burn out and stuff.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

Well, that was a... God, that was a rabbit hole of all kinds of rabbit holes, wasn't it?

Siobhan:

It was. And I don't know if we've come to any conclusions, but I think for me, these discussions are worth having because you've always got to question yourself and question what's really going on, haven't you? You've got to think, is this real? Is what I'm seeing real? And what does it mean? Yeah. And what do other people think about it? Because I've got my view. I still believe that if we're going back to the flag, I still believe the people that are putting them up are probably racist. But... It's good to question these things and see what other people are thinking about it and challenge yourself.

Andy:

It's about intent. It goes back to what we said before. It's about understanding intent and not making that judgment because... And I think... I think we differ slightly. No, we don't because of the example I gave earlier. So my knee-jerk reaction is to make the same assumption. The person finds that George's flag is a racist. When my conscious mind kicks in, I get a curiosity and I want a conversation with them to say, why are you flying that flag? Or what's the motive? Now, the odds are if you pick a racist and you ask them that question, you're going to get a load of abuse. If you ask somebody who's flying it to reclaim the flag or because they just want to fly the George's flag you're going to get a conversation out of it but I think and you know that goes back to the point we as a society have shied away from challenging things because predominantly we're fearful of confrontation

Siobhan:

yeah I think that's true

Andy:

but it goes back to the last podcast to the last episode the last series about men challenging other men with misogyny men don't as a rule because they're scared or they don't want to be viewed a particular way you know whatever and on top of the stuff we were talking about which is some men just don't see it and that's not yes naivety but actually we need to kind of drive this culture where people question stuff and almost i don't know almost go all in on something which they perceive as wrong but you do it in the right way to make sure that the understanding of intent is correct before you then start to challenge

Siobhan:

yeah

Andy:

maybe that's it that's the problem people may assumptions they don't uncover intent and by making assumptions they create conflict because they will on either side of the coin, they will defend their position, which may have been fed by inaccuracies, wrong information and everything else. So it's about speaking to people and understanding what information they've got, where they've got it from, what fact checking's gone on, and whether it's actually reality and truth over media spin or people spinning stuff. I think... I think it's fairly safe at the moment, given everything in the media, to assume that people flying the St. George's flag are racist. Yeah. Majority. But I can think of two people who are in their 70s and 80s who are independent of each other that have always flown the St. George's flag, and that's because they're proud of being English, but they're very much open arms around immigrants and stuff. I don't know. It's an interesting topic.

Siobhan:

It is interesting. And I've got people in my village, actually, that have flagpoles, which I find interesting. quite amusing but they change the flags depending on one of them's got an EU flag one of them's got the Ukraine flag went up when that all kicked off and sometimes it might be St George's flag see again it's context so if that person flew a flag I'd be like oh look they're flying a different flag I wouldn't really think because I know they're like flying flags but But if I was just driving through my village, I wouldn't know that. Oh, that George's flag is okay because they always fly a flag. I wouldn't know that. I'd make that assumption of they're racist.

Andy:

That's an interesting one to finish on. Oh, this is going to end up being a really long conversation, isn't it? Okay, really quickly. No, no, really quickly. This is the bit that makes me feel good about society because when everything kicked off in Ukraine, everything across social media, flags being flown, it was all the Ukrainian flag.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

That for me was true humanity because it was showing solidarity with and support for what we perceived was going on in Ukraine.

Siobhan:

Yes.

Andy:

But... What we perceived was going on in Ukraine was information we got from the media who will always paint out that whatever's going on that Russia's involved with is because Russia's the bad actor. Now, I am not supporting Russia at all. I am 100% behind Ukraine. And I think what Russia has done is it's war crimes, it's unforgivable and everything else. So before people accuse me of being a Russian sympathizer, I Absolutely not. Let's just be bloody clear on that. But the point I'm making is that we only know one side of the story. And I think that's a bad example, actually. But we only know one side of the story. So we were all supporting Ukraine and flying Ukrainian flags and everything else. But what's the other side of the story?

Siobhan:

Well, and the other example of that, and this is something I think about all the time, and I'm not going to go down this road because this is a whole can of worms, but Palestine and Israel. I think about this every single day. And I have a view about what's going on in Palestine. I have quite a strong view about what's going on in Palestine. But I can't help but wonder if there's a lot more to this than I know. There's a lot on face value we should be doing more about this we should I mean I think this is genocide and we should be doing more about it is my opinion but I also think that it's not as cut and dry. I mean, the history behind that in itself is very complex. But in today, I think there's more going on there than we know. So I have a strong belief in that, but I caveat that with, I don't think I know the full story here. I hate seeing humans suffer, and I think about that every single day, but I'm not naive enough to think it's straightforward.

Andy:

No, and I think it's the same with India and Pakistan. Yes, yeah. I've... learned from Pakistani friends and Indian friends and the dynamic I've seen between them when things have happened I haven't even scratched the surface with what's going on there and I've had hours and hours of conversations I think actually drawing this to a close this is quite a nice way to conclude because we've got three examples that you've got russian ukraine israel and palestine and you've got pakistan and india And this all goes back to, there's two parties involved. One has one view, the other has a different view, and they end up going to war. Now, there'll be people that will argue that there's oil behind it, or there's resources behind it, or it's a land grab, or it's whatever, or there's religion, or whatever it might be. But this is the point. If you cannot live in society with a level of acceptance that people are different, then you're going to live in a society where there's conflict and war. What we need to do as a human race is find a way of everybody respecting everybody else.

Siobhan:

Or just finding a way of disagreeing without killing each other.

Andy:

Exactly. But that comes with respect. So it's respectful. What's the expression that Nick Ferrari uses? I respectfully, I agreeably disagree. Yeah. So in other words, we need to agree to disagree with each other. We have a level of autonomy and intelligence that means that we can hold our own views. Now, why we hold those views is the thing that's questionable, right?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

But the majority of this stuff is an injured party gets upset because somebody's done something to them and they retaliate. Yeah. So what do we need to do to get to a point where the initial action doesn't happen? And you can boil this down into society, going back to my original example of conflict in a local community, where one person said something which upset someone else. but the person who was offended or upset by it, did they really understand what the intent was behind it? Did they know that that person said what they said and they interpreted it the right way, or if they made assumptions and the final line to make an ass to assume is to make an ass of you and me that if you put that in the middle of absolutely everything, I say this to my kids every day.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

They react to me when I say something to them and I'm like, you're, you're Reaction's interesting, but do you know why I said what I said?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

When I tell them why I said it, I didn't think it was that. I thought it was this. And it's reflective of their own, what's going on in their own worlds.

Siobhan:

Absolutely. But highlighting that at a young age is key, I think. Yeah.

Andy:

There it is. So we need to educate our kids to understand that what their perception of someone is, is not necessarily truth or fact. And if you read that through society, when that generation gets to a place of power, there'll be more tolerance in the world.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Andy:

Bloody hell, that got heavy, didn't

Siobhan:

it? World peace. There you go. Sorted. Easy.

Andy:

Yeah. World peace. Yeah. Bloody if only that was anywhere near anywhere near the truth I don't think we'll ever get world peace

Siobhan:

no I don't think so I think by human nature sadly

Andy:

we

Siobhan:

are still animals at the end of the day

Andy:

so if you've got a view on what we've just been talking about or you've got any other topic you want us to go into then drop us an email at letstalk at why not what if dot com cheers Siobhan

Siobhan:

cheers always nice talking to you

Andy:

that was good that was good

Siobhan:

well so you never know where we're gonna go with these things do we

Andy:

oh god that was insane that bounced around all over the place Well, that's it for this episode of Why Not and What If, where the conversations get messy, magical and a little bit rebellious. If it made you think, laugh or rage text your mates, job done. That's what we're here for. Got a topic you think we should dive into? Drop us a line at letstalk at whynotwhatif.com. Seriously, your ideas fuel this chaos. And don't forget to follow, subscribe, shout about us in your WhatsApp groups, on LinkedIn and come back next week for more brutally honest occasionally unhinged and always human conversations see you next time

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Andy Cracknell

Co-host
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Siobhan Godden

Co-host