Why Not? & What If?
A podcast about life, work, well-being and the beautiful chaos in between. Hosted by Andy Cracknell, a creative whirlwind and a disruptor of dull thinking and allergies to doing things the usual way. And Siobhán Godden who listens through the noise to what really matters.
Think of Siobhan as the calm in Andy's storm!!!
In each episode, we’ll dig into the stuff that shapes how we live and lead – from gender equality and parenting, to burnout, brave decisions, and big ‘what ifs’.
Why Not? & What If?
My Awesome Mind: Rethinking Neurodiversity, Parenting, and Education
In this powerful episode, Andy and Siobhán sit down with Yasmin Wells (yasmin@apricity.solutions / www.apricity.solutions) to explore the extraordinary story of her nine-year-old son, Alex, who wrote a book called My Awesome Mind.
Alex’s unique perspective on autism reframes the conversation from challenges and deficits to creativity, positivity, and possibility. Yasmin shares how his book came to life, what it reveals about the way he experiences the world, and the impact it’s already had on his classmates, teachers, and parents.
The discussion broadens into a wider exploration of parenting, neurodiversity in schools, the challenges teachers face, and the vital role of listening, love, and advocacy.
Together, they ask the big questions:
How do we nurture children’s natural spark?
How do we stop outdated systems from shutting them down?
And what would change if we all asked each other “How does your mind work?”
This is a raw, emotional, and hopeful conversation for parents, educators, leaders and anyone who cares about how we raise the next generation.
Got a story or a view? Email letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
— we might do a follow-up episode with your takes.
Welcome to Why Not and What If?
SPEAKER_03:And
SPEAKER_02:I'm Siobhan Godden, a HR consultant, coach, and the one who listens through the noise to what really matters. Think of me as the calm to Andy's creative storm. Hi, this is Andy Cracknell, creative whirlwind, disruptor of dull thinking and allergic to doing things the usual
SPEAKER_00:way. Thanks Siobhan. I'm also a marketing and communications consultant. And this is
SPEAKER_02:the podcast where we explore the messy, magical intersection of life, work, leadership and all the bits we're not supposed to talk about. Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, Siobhan, we're back again for another one. We are joined today by Yasmin Wells, who has a fascinating, isn't a big enough word for me. Let's go with fascinating for a moment. A fascinating story to tell about her little boy, Alex, who's nine and he's written a book. How many nine-year-olds do you know that have written books? Welcome, Yasmin. How are you doing? Hi.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, good, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for
SPEAKER_01:inviting me along here as well. And I love your enthusiasm about kind of Alex's book as well because obviously as his mum I think he's awesome but kind of like hearing others think that his work is incredible too is wonderful so thank you
SPEAKER_00:he is and so to give the background you and I have been probably talking for about damn it's four or five months now isn't it just yeah we're working together on how we can or how you can take Alex's output his book and share it with the world which is ultimately what he wants to achieve Do you want to give us an overview or a bit of background into the book? What's Alex's book about?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure. So I will try and kind of explain it as well. But first of all, it's in my mind as well. I forget everything after it's happened. So I try and think back to when it all started. But yeah, I actually put a date on here. This is why he's so awesome. So Alex is autistic and he is very different to me and kind of very logical and really kind of organized. It all started back in the day. where we were just going for a walk to the park I think it was and he started just talking about dreams and kind of how he sees images in his dreams but in the daytime he started talking about I see words and I see symbols for kind of putting processes together and I stopped him and I was like Alex that's incredible I've never heard anyone say that before and he was like oh I just thought everyone kind of thought like that and I was like no because I see everything in images and I see music and colour and all sorts of very different kind of way of thinking so I started kind of quizzing him about it because I'm fascinated about everything to do with people's minds and it ended up being an hour long conversation all the way to the park where my eldest kind of wandered off and I said can I start taking some notes because this has just blown my mind like this insight into yourself and he was like yeah sure so he just caught up for ages and when we got home he said I'm going to type this up because I'll lose them he's like why don't we just turn it into a book and I was like yeah why not so he literally just stood there and narrated the whole thing because he couldn't type quick enough I had to stop him so he was exhausted but he didn't want to stop he kind of fully focused on it and I had to kind of stop give him some food and a bit of drink have a drink and things he wanted to go all the way up into bedtime to write all of this down and I don't know how many pages it is it's quite long but it's absolutely incredible it's one of the best things I've read about autism because I tend to kind of like try and research it to help my boys who are both autistic and my eldest is ADHD everything it just seems so negative and looking at kind of all the challenges and the problems Alex is talking about he's literally called it my awesome mind about all the wonderful things about himself and I think it's so powerful that hopefully I'll inspire others to think about what's awesome about their minds whether you're neurodivergent or not I think it applies to anyone and then he after all of this he wanted to put some pictures on it and then he took it into school to show his teacher because he really loves his teacher And I said, are you going to present it? He's like, no, I can't present this to anyone. I said, it's okay. So we printed it off, took it into school. And you get like points all the time, like for good work. So you get like one point for doing an amazing essay or something at school. Came back with 25 of these points and he was buzzing. And then he got his first gold star, which like it was not very far into the year. And so he was like, oh my God, this is amazing. It's the best thing ever. And he didn't tell me that he actually presented it to everyone. Like his teacher told me that. later he got up in front of his whole class and read his whole book out to everyone and everyone was like this is incredible and a mum came up to me actually in the playground after parents evening when I heard that saying oh my son came back and asked me what autism is and started kind of talking to me about it it sparked conversations with parents from what he was teaching his peers as well the teacher asked me if I can use it as a resource to teach the other teachers as well and I thought absolutely this is what's needed it's just brilliant Joy, give an
SPEAKER_02:overview of the actual book. Quick question first, because what immediately popped into my head there is you saying about all the research and everything focuses on what you can't do and the disabilities behind it. He's clearly really positive about how his brain works to the extent that he wants everyone to know about it. Where did that positivity come from? Because I bet there's loads of parents and teachers listening who will be thinking, who might have an autistic child who's like, how How can I make them feel like that?
SPEAKER_01:I think the people around him, they must shape how he thinks. Like his dad is awesome as well. Kind of, I think he recognizes he's autistic. And I think being able to model having a successful career and following kind of your interests and spending time doing things that kind of bring you joy. And he's got amazing kind of grandparents as well that kind of all do cooking with him and just love him. And that whole kind of network around him, I think is super positive. And that does give you, like you described, that safety piece and when you raise things that are kind of difficult for you as well and that's listened to and adjustments made I think that makes a huge difference to people because I've had the flip side of that of where having had a voice or having been able to make adjustments made and having to struggle through things and it closes you down I think and impacts your self-esteem so I also think there's just a personality about him when he was born the midwife was like look at you him and his eyes he's been here before and there's so many moments I don't believe that sort of thing there's so many moments of like this wise little man kind of insight like in his head and comes out with stuff like how on earth do you know that that's like really sound advice that you would expect from someone probably in their 70s you know that's a little lie so I think there's also that kind of focus and kind heart that he's got that he just wants his voice heard and he'll work to make sure that happens and help others so I think there's lots of things going on maybe I don't know I
SPEAKER_02:think the key things I heard there were love and being listened to even if you can't make the adjustments because sometimes it's physically impossible to if you feel heard that's more than half of it isn't it
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah if you don't feel alone and things I think that's really powerful isn't it really does so can I ask what's in the book oh sorry Andy do you have a question
SPEAKER_00:no no go on
SPEAKER_01:yeah so he describes like in his mind that he has like basically it's a mini computer and he's got all these different folders in his head about kind of stuff that he'll put in the good good things important things that's not really important things but it's kind of in there which would probably got too many of these in there yeah um and like and do what you described with the recycling bin stuff where bad stuff or things he doesn't really want to think about in there and then to get all of those pieces of paper into the folders he's got all these mini figures and they've all got their set jobs as well. So it kind of links back to what I was thinking about. You need a structure, a purpose, something that you know what you're going to be doing. And all of them have got little jobs that almost go in a logical sequence. So ones that will write the information down on the paper, they'll cut the information up into little paper strips, sorters, deciding about where it all needs to go, lorry driver, crane driver, etc. Puts them all into the folders and files it away. My favourite out of all of these, which I'm just obsessed with and I think about it a lot, so this future figure that he came up with and the future figure is kind of the one that's make all the dreams happen so if you think about a goal or kind of like a future dream that's the one that will hold on to this and then kind of make it all happen but you've got to think about what does that future figure need to make that happen so he's done a step-by-step plan of how he wants to become a millionaire by the time he's 30 fully agreed like think he's gonna do that and he wants to own a shop he's got a name for it in there and everything so here's step by step plan he's recognised that he wants to make some food in that shop and he needs like I've bought him a food processor so he's practising out recipes now that's his starting point then he wants to start making food to sell and then the brand he's broken it all down like a business plan basically but that future figure needs certain things to make all of that happen the recycling bin piece then he says like it all goes in there it's all fine but when he starts to get sleepy then that's when things fill out and I had noticed with him that that he's fine all through the day and then towards the end of the day that's when he would kind of like become more able like shut down more so just suddenly go quiet even though he was bouncing around before that and I was like what is going on why is it always right at the end of the day he describes that the figures get really sleepy so they knock over this bin and then all that kind of bad stuff will spill out and then that's what kind of sometimes ends up in the dreams because it pops onto the conveyor belt that will filter all the different information through I was like oh that makes far more sense because that it does link to like rumination for some people you know when you lay down in bed and all these thoughts pop in your head when you're really exhausted like remember you did this all that oh stop
SPEAKER_02:it sounds like a Pixar movie
SPEAKER_01:yeah and then there was another bit around how he'll get words and letters muddled up as well and I noticed this about where I have to repeat things and like I'm not going to say it's just something I get a bit like why do I have to keep repeating it myself but I didn't really understand why I thought he just wasn't listening but he explained about well if you've got some of those kind of like bigger thoughts some kind of more negative thoughts filling up your head then he describes it takes up 30 to 40 percent of his mind it's very constructed and very mathematical so if I'm talking to him that takes up 70 to 80 percent and obviously that doesn't really add up so it's kind of there's not enough space for all of that information so all the words get jumbled up because it's all mixed up so he will get confused because he'll miss out words from what I've said so he asked me to repeat it until it starts sticking and the bad thoughts go out of his head so I thought it was good in terms of explaining it but the bit about the selective mutism and he said that when all of those thoughts just get too big so they take up all of the space in his head they kind of pump up and become a big squishy ball that fills up his head so the figures stop talking to each other and they stop processing information so he stopped to talking because he can't function so writing it down on the paper all the figures he described he looks down at that paper and it kickstarts that whole like conveyor belt processes again in his head works through all of that and then the big squishiness of the bad thoughts just get out of his head and pop into bubbles so that's why he starts talking again I don't know where on earth he's got it from because it's not something that anyone has ever talked to him about it's all like how he conceptualizes himself which I just think is a
SPEAKER_00:what's your view on this from a parent teacher perspective in terms of where the support is and what needs to be done to make sure that amazing kids like Alex and Zach are being allowed to flourish rather than being shoehorned into a box because they're that what was the expression we used earlier the negative connotations that are associated with neurodiversity that you and I have experienced in adulthood in the working life being accused of being mavericks and disruptives and a pain in the arsenal the rest of it
SPEAKER_01:yeah i don't know i mean i think the teachers have got a really really difficult job you've got so many targets you've got lots of kids in a room everyone in that room is unique and there's so much to juggle let alone your own personal life alongside all of that and the culture and the way that schools are regulated and the curriculum etc very very difficult jobs so there's no criticism from kind of that perspective I just think ultimately there just needs to be a massive shift in mindset about working with children about asking what do they think or approaching things from a different perspective so with my eldest Zach I think I talked to you about it recently about I really loved the fact that when it came up to start I asked him quite a few times before kind of you know you feeling alright about it is it alright it's like yeah yeah it's fine and then literally one week before he was like I'm really worried about it I don't know how I can do it and I started kind of asking about what some of his challenges were with it and what he needed in place and it was such a brilliant conversation because he identified that he verbally processes information which I didn't know before and he didn't really kind of realise and that was the reason why he was really struggling because he would read text like five times over and would not go in but when he hears himself talk stick straight away so he can get on with it he's a very bright boy so he said I just want to be in a room on my own away from the kids and things and be able to talk because I can't do that in a whole classroom full of people and there was a few other things that he kind of identified so I went into school one week before SAP so I don't know what they're going to be able to do but I sit down with the teacher to explain that because I didn't feel confident doing it and the conversation was about 40 minutes and we were going around the same cycle this is what SAC says this is kind of what he needs can we put that in place whereas the teacher was saying no I think He needs to be in with all the class. I didn't want him to miss out on this experience. We're going to be doing X, Y and Z. And kept sticking to that. It was when we kind of started talking about, well, what have you tried already for him? And it was, well, he's tried the classroom and he's tried a small group, neither of which he could talk out loud. So I said, well, should we just try it so that he can be in a room on his own? I know that it's like next week, but 20 minutes where he's got a room on his own. So they agreed. He did it and he was brilliant. So then she put that in place for him. And I really appreciate what she did because I know how hard that must have been for her. And at the end of the set, like going from, I really am going to fail. He talks very negatively about how he doesn't think he's intelligent, et cetera. He came out and laid in bed at the end of it all, just full bedtime. I'm really proud of what I did in sets. I got through that and I actually quite enjoyed it. And I was like, that's incredible. Probably more from my perspective of he identified what he needed himself his voice was listened to by that teacher and she put that in place and he got the results that he wanted personally it's not even about the score I guess I don't care about that he felt confident and really great so going forward in life hopefully he'll carry that on and be able to voice that and so many people myself included can't do
SPEAKER_00:that this goes back to what you were saying earlier Siobhan and that is so you asked where the positive energy came from for Alex around the book Yasmin that's why I have the view i do everything you've just said because strip away neurodiversity just look at children growing up right they develop this internal monologue at a very young age as young as 18 months two years old and they observe everything around them and what they hear and see is what and what you say to them is what is the view that they form of themselves so the classic typical example of that is you never say to your child you're naughty or you're a bad child because then they start to believe it and then they play into that so you focus on the positives but what you've done with Zach in that situation the first thing is is that you've helped him be heard so he has that value of self this is the really important thing because then whatever the monologue is is validates it if he believes that he's worthy of it because you're showing him he is but then the other thing is is that you've you've said to him actually if you push for what you want a need and you you know you go through that conversation you might not have the confidence to talk to the teacher but there are other ways there's more than one way of skinning a cat right so mums come in to take up the conversation because you were nervous about doing it but actually it just proves that you can do your SATs if you can find the right environment now translate that to an adult situation in an employment situation where you've got an employee who's got to give a big presentation to the board they're crapping themselves about it they're just i don't i don't know whether i can do this i can't i'm freaking out and then their line manager says to them what do you need to prepare rather than the response that i've had all of my life which is just shut up and get on with it just put it in a powerpoint you're only going to be in there five minutes and then just talk to the powerpoint that doesn't help anybody
SPEAKER_02:or imagine them naked that also doesn't help no
SPEAKER_00:it
SPEAKER_02:doesn't
SPEAKER_00:Some of the girls I've worked with, I wouldn't even go in the room. Whereas what Yasmin did was go in and suggest an alternative. And in my view, it was really lucky that they were able to facilitate it. I think I will shut up in a minute. I promise. I've got a 13 year old at the moment who's going through all kinds of hell from a mental health perspective. And the school she's at have been absolutely phenomenal. Like the best school in the country from my perspective, because they've helped her phenomenally. But they made a point when we were a meeting a couple of weeks ago where they said you keep saying thanks to us for all the work we're putting in and all the hard work and and the strategy bit and everything else and they said but they said but the thing is is we wouldn't be able to do that without you and your wife and in fairness we wouldn't be able to do it if your daughter wasn't the person she is all boils back down to that positive reinforcement and and that self-view the child has and their And I think that's
SPEAKER_02:a really good point, actually, because we do, and I've been guilty of this, like I've got a neurodivergent son, where you just get frustrated that... Thank you. are going to have some establishments that are probably very very restrictive but I think we've all got stories around how we've tried to work with the school and they have actually been able to accommodate some of this stuff and so I think there's a lot of learning there around relationships and not being challenging in a destructive way but being challenging in a constructive way but then I see that as a privilege though because I think there's lots of kids out there that probably don't have that or have parents that can't articulate that like we can. But I think it's a learning for us all.
SPEAKER_00:I think you've hit a point here because I was the school governor for three years fairly recently. I was a chair, beat you. The bit that really upsets me about it, and it is naivety, is... actually the number of parents that don't give a shit
SPEAKER_02:and it's a shock isn't
SPEAKER_00:it and they just dump their kids on the school and go there you go they're your responsibility now you educate them you bring them up you feed them you teach them you teach them how to nappy train and all this kind of stuff and it was a hell of a gear shift for me because I've lived this fairy tale life of my mum and dad brought me up fairly reasonably fairly well but I just thought everybody was like that that you know everybody's parents cared and you know protected their kids but no No, definitely not. I would even go as far from my experience to suggest that actually it's the minority of parents that invest in their kids on the level that we're talking about here. And it depends on the area you're in. The school I was a governor at was in an incredibly diverse socioeconomic area of the UK and we had everybody from children that were below the poverty line right the way up to kids whose parents were earning crazy amounts of money. But as I said, it's the majority that just, well, kids aren't my problem. Now they're at school, they can deal with them.
SPEAKER_01:It's really tricky, isn't it? There's the aspect of, from my perspective, completely just my perspective, is I think the schools could do a lot more than needs to be proper training. There's a huge amount of awareness and knowledge about that. And that shift in mindset of teachers could have had that conversation with the whole class that I've had with Zach and the teacher. Really grateful that she put that in place. That could have been a conversation with all of the kids about okay what do you need to be able to do your best and let's work out how we make all of this possible sometimes it might not be possible but we've listened to you and this is what the adjustments we've made to enable that rather than a blanket this is how you do it and truly work with the students learn from them as well as teaching as well and then there's the other aspect of empowering parents because it is so difficult to navigate everything and complex hugely complex system for support and lack of support I mean my other in my career I redesigned healthcare services and more recently focused on supporting neurodivergent people because of the struggles I've experienced and know others that have because there is a quite a strong hereditary link isn't there and if you have been through all of this yourself and there's high risk factors for things like ADHD where you've got high suicide rates high substance abuse poor mental health all of the evidence is behind all of that so you're struggling you can be struggling yourself and then trying to bring up a child as well that is kind of going through things and they're not getting support as a parent it's very difficult to know how to support when you haven't had it yourself as well so there's a two-fold piece of there needs to be far better support for schools for parents and for children in my opinion
SPEAKER_02:There is you make a really good point because when my son went through his diagnosis for dyslexia it came out as a result of that my husband My husband realised that he was dyslexic and he really, really struggled in school, really struggled. And he said, if I knew then what I know now, my life would have been easier at school. The thing that we struggle with a little bit is he's actually very successful in his career. And some of that is because of the tenacity and his ways of problem solving because he's had to overcome it all by himself. So you question, would you be where you are now? Maybe not, maybe. Who knows? But then it's almost like he's going on the journey at the same time as our son is. So it's understanding what his needs are. But he's got that, also that perception of what I wish I had as well. But it's an interesting journey, I would say, going through it in later life.
SPEAKER_01:It's really triggering. Like, it was really triggering in year three because when I went through school, I had a horrible experience. facing the wall away from everyone told people and people said they didn't want to look at my face and I couldn't learn they thought I need to go to specialist school etc etc so I had to navigate my way around it and learning my way went twice as hard to be able to get through all of that and I just didn't say anything because I didn't then people wouldn't know that I didn't get it and then in year three for Zach like he had gone from a child that was full of life and running into school wanting to learn about kind of sharks and stuff you know sea creatures and was thriving kind of like top of his class and then year three here and they saw him as well he gets distracted so they faced him to the wall away from everyone away from his friends and they couldn't even see the board doing that and I went that was extremely triggering for me because it's as I had and I'm like how how is it still happening so that's kind of fighting the school to make sure that he has what he needed in place but unfortunately that took a long time until there was a teacher that got him and then And that teacher told me that he'd go to the charity shop the weekend and get a book about sea creatures so he could adapt the class learning to something that he was interested in. And he went back up to the top of the class again. I
SPEAKER_00:don't know if I'm overstepping a line saying this. Hang on. Sitting and facing a wall. Being told to sit and face a wall. How old was he when it happened?
SPEAKER_01:Year three, what's that? What's that about?
SPEAKER_00:Nine, yeah, nine. Being told to sit and face the wall as an eight or nine year old child for me is nothing short of child abuse because you, at the very least, it's emotional abuse because you're separating. Sorry, that's...
SPEAKER_01:no it does have a huge knock-on effect so the consequence of that was he was coming home daily having meltdowns to the point of you know kind of crushing his room wanting to hurt himself and end up having a referral through to CAMHS and that's the knock-on effect of not getting it right for children and then working through to get the right provision and now you know he's that you know as happy as they probably could be at the moment there's obviously still challenges I think in terms of that self-esteem but that's you know it's rooted in the negatives that he's received through school.
SPEAKER_00:I've clawed it all back together now. Basically, the point I was trying to make is that that absolutely should not be happening, whether it's whatever the circumstances are, because we're in a place where this is the 21st century and we now understand how important this internal monologue is and, you know, self, you know, views of ourselves and stuff. And that's such an archaic thing to do. Part of me or so the question I wanted to wanted it to lead to is an open question, really. around working practices within education where actually some of the things that they are doing are seeded back in the you know 60s 70s 80s 90s when we were at school because that was something I was told to do all the time that's why it triggered me as much as it did it just it that hurt hearing that again no no no no no no don't be sorry but I think there is that question around yes we can say you know that processing need to change and policies need to change and the support structure and networks need to change and everything else. But I think there's a more fundamental need of a top down restructure of the way the education system works. Now that's an impossibility. You just couldn't do that wholesale across an entire country over a short period of time.
SPEAKER_02:Actually my son challenged the school on that as a fellow neurodiverse. He said the school system needs to change and their response was we agree but it's going to take 100 years. And he was
SPEAKER_00:like, okay. But it's that defeatist attitude on behalf of the school that is actually preventing it from changing quickly, which was precisely the point I was leading to. It's so good you chipped in with that.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
UNKNOWN:Because I saw Yasmin shaking her head when I was saying that. And there is, there's a resistance out there that says it doesn't need to take that long and it doesn't need to be that complicated. We just need to start talking to each other and listening to people, specifically the kids in the system, which is the final point I want to make.
SPEAKER_00:If you're going to expect a child to engage in an education system, you can't do that on the basis that you dictate to them what they experience. It has to be based on a two-way relationship where they input into what they are going to experience. And I'm sorry, but anybody that responds and goes, yeah, but it's not that easy or yeah, but there is, you have to have a set of boundaries and rules. Bullshit. Sorry. Yeah. don't because if you have as long as you have psychological safety and trust for the children a positive nurturing environment for them to grow in the right teachers involved you can do it with the resources you've got except where there are individual circumstances needed but there are ways of getting that into place and this whole thing around no we can't do it no we can't do it i'm sorry but i guarantee you you could go out there and find a school somewhere in the uk that has got the same problem and is doing it because they give a shit it or they care more or care enough to find a way of dealing with it.
SPEAKER_02:The other interesting dynamic going on at the minute is there's an increase and this is with my school governor hat on and looking at the stats and stuff. There is an increase in kids represented as neurodiverse and I was having an interesting discussion with my friends at Neurobridge recently about this. So they're a company that do neurodiverse training and I was like, what's your theory on this increase and they said well partly it's awareness because we understand it better now so we're going to spot it more now but they were saying it's actually a throwback from covid because the kids haven't learned the masking skills that they might have had to had to being forced into developing for survival more or less they hadn't they've missed those formative years so it's just being it's just out there more and my other personal theory is evolution. I think our brains are evolving. That's my other thing is why there's more of them as well. And the schools will say they're struggling to cope because there's this massive increase, which then begs the question, it's that chicken and egg thing. Is there a massive increase or is it the school system that needs to adapt? I don't know
SPEAKER_01:how I'd challenge it in terms of what does it matter if there's an increase? It's about neurodiversity. It's not about catering for
SPEAKER_03:one
SPEAKER_01:or the other it's about incorporating it so it's an inclusive environment and my boys are always saying to me why are you doing that like what why can't we just make it happen and like people create courses overnight don't they about different things and how if you just threw it out the window and started from scratch and just got on with it and listened to what students need look at what the world needs right now and redesign that and put the right checks balances the safety etc that you've described in place it does not take a hundred years we just need to be kind of like shift from it can't happen it's going to be difficult let's just make it happen how can we do this it works for our students my son like Alex he is absolutely genius like he sits at the I don't know what was it two years ago sat at the dining room table and said how many seconds are there in a year worked it out in his head and got it right it's like three million something or other and he still remembers but he has got that inquisitive mind and then he goes to school finishes his work in five minutes and he comes home frustrated so I'm bored I cannot what's the point of me going to school I want to run all these businesses I'm not learning any of that it will help me why am I sat in here learning about ISIN I don't want to know about ISIN like it's not setting him up for the future and I've sat there thinking that so it's like what would help with all of that like learning about incorporating AI about the business about you know people want to do.
SPEAKER_02:And this is my HR hat back on now, not my parent hat, but the kids are coming out of school not prepared for the world of work at all. Their learning skills, I mean, who was it? It was Michael Gove, probably, who was like, or one of them anyway, was like, they have to do maths until they die, pretty much. And it's like, really? I mean, the way they teach maths is different now. And he, my son had this, he was doing his GCSEs and he had this one sum and it was three A4 pages of working out to get this done. He had to demonstrate all of it. Now, it wasn't like that when I did my maths. And he said even his teacher, who's younger than me, said it wasn't like that before. But I don't really get why this is helping him in life. He needs to know how interest rates work and, you know, the economics of how business runs and things like that, rather than a three-page A4 side of maths equations.
SPEAKER_00:It goes back to the arguments, doesn't it, when we were at school, is that maths is applied across a number of different things, including economics and everything else. But my pushback was always, yes, but if you don't show me the context, how am I going to be able to know that it translates? So this is why, actually, I'm going to be slightly controversial. I don't think maths should be taught much beyond the age of 18. Once you get the basic concepts around adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplication, everything else is then context relevant. So formulas and shapes and engineering and all this kind of stuff. So why not then at that point, rather than have maths, start teaching things like accounting or business finance or home economics or those kinds of things so that they can actually, from a young age, start applying those core mathematical principles. because maths is all about adding subtracting multiplying and dividing everything I sat and looked through my daughter's stuff the other day everything there is one of those four things involved so if you start applying the context then you're equipping kids from an earlier age or making them aware at an earlier age of all the things that go you know that are going on in the world and then going back to Alex's point when he was saying why have I got to sit and learn all this I've got all these business ideas I want to be out there running businesses I rely to that because I was in exactly the same boat when I was at school I didn't see the point and contextually I was just sat there banging my head against the brick wall going you're teaching me all this crap and it's not going to do anything for me and that frustration builds but what you don't want to happen is the education system to now knock it out of Alex this aspiration and desire this energy this zest this spark to go out and start a business because he's got to endure another seven years of of the education system before he can even get a sneeze at doing that and that's why parenting is so important because if we don't change the education system yasmin sorry but it's on you to make sure that spark and energy and everything else stays in him so that he's he's just doing school because he has to but then he still comes out the end of it with the spark and everything that you know which is which to me is why the education system is so fundamentally wrong it's quite crap i'm sorry but it's crap that we've got amazing teachers and amazing establishments they're just not being used and utilized in the right ways and it's all policy and big people with political agenda sat behind desks thinking they know what they're talking about when the reality is is they're not listening to people like alex you me yasmin anybody that was at school at any point they're just not
SPEAKER_01:listening you're just knocking all that creativity and innovation out of them, weren't they? Kind of making them conform, shut up and do what we tell you to do and then that's just not right. I think, I don't know if there's more fire in people that are neurodivergent about kind of the justice side of things and the questioning of things and it doesn't make logical sense with things but kind of the challenge but then has such a knock-on effect. I'm really lucky that my voice is still going to school as such because there's so many people that their children and themselves have the anxieties got too much and the impact on mental health is so great that they stopped refusing to go to school. I've had it with Alex where he had refused to go in in year three actually I think not for very different reasons but he didn't have any friends at that point and he didn't know what to do at break time he didn't know how to kind of even engage in people with people in the classroom because of the social challenges that he had. It was far simpler with him in terms of okay you need structure to us we've got like this resource box of tools so we had a game to play every single play time so we knew where to go could practice conversations with him and there were little groups that are kind of like formed so that you could build some friendships up and it's great but others if they haven't had that kind of facilitation and then that school refusal keeps going on and on and on to the point where they end up not being able to go to school the knock on effect to parents is you end up having to you can't work can you like some might be able to work remotely but the majority have to give up their jobs stats on that in terms of three out of four families that had to give up their jobs divorce rates 80% now isn't it for neurodivergent families is that true
SPEAKER_03:wow
SPEAKER_01:yeah and then there's the burnout there's just a huge huge knock on effect to everything and I'm lucky I haven't had that I can imagine you know it must be horrific for families that are experiencing all of that
SPEAKER_02:you can see how it can happen can't you wow I think That's really shocked me.
SPEAKER_00:It's quite scary. I mean, the divorce rate on average across neurotypical is 50%, isn't it, at the moment? One in two marriages fail. But then with neurodiversity involved, it goes up to 80%, which is that scary.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:yeah wow yeah and that has a lot of effect unfortunately like that's what i've been through as well was family was a very resilient but it does have an impact but with i don't know a lot could if you just get in there early it just stops all of that happening doesn't it for the future and i coach a lot of people that mostly people with adhd but the themes are the same they're kind of they're either on performance review they're often on term six and really poor self-esteem and self-worth and not feeling good enough burnout etc all because they're trying to fit into the neurotypical world and it's just it's hard isn't
SPEAKER_00:it yeah and I think maybe there's another podcast in that in terms of the transition from childhood neurodivergent childhood into neurodivergent as an adult because actually a lot of the stuff that we've talked about today is it certainly resonates with my experience of schooling and then transitioning into the working world as I've got older and the complexities and the difficulties that a neurodivergent individual face. I mean, it's hard enough if you're neurotypical, right? It's not an easy world to exist in. But maybe there's another conversation there. I'm just conscious of time, but before we let you run off into the hills, Yasmin, is there anything left in your head that you really want to say about any of the points we've talked about? Is there anything jumping up and down and going, you need to say this bit or whatever at this point?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think so, but I do love how Alex ended his book, I suppose. that he always kind of helps others think about their own minds. And that's where I've spent it at the start. I think that this isn't just for people who are autistic. This is for anyone in terms of understanding your own mind. It's kind of like, well, how does it work for you? He talks about kind of minifigures and factories and things in his head. The kind of understanding about where do you put different things in your hands? Do you categorize it into those same folders or do you do different? Is there anything like, do you think your figures are happy or do you think that they need to kind have a bit of a support around that and things what could be improved what's your dream future and i love that in terms of the whole dream big thing it's like i don't know i feel that gets knocked out of you if you don't dream big because it can't happen actually stick to that think about that and keep going with that because people can make that happen and encourages you to kind of write it down and think about all of that and then just kind of a recap about autism about doesn't make you weird just makes you what you want to be and And it's just a different way of being, really. Just keep your mind safe. And I really love how he's put it all together. Everyone's different and that's brilliant.
SPEAKER_02:I think what this has left me with is whether if you're a parent or even if you've just got young people in your life, you don't necessarily have to be a parent, but whether they're neurodiverse or neurotypical, I think asking these questions about what they're thinking and what's going through their minds is really powerful because it's It's something you don't really, you know, there's not a conversation that people have very often. You sit down and say, well, how does your mind work? How do you process things? And there's ways of having that conversation with younger people without saying processing and stuff like that. So I think that's the thing I will take away from this is having that insight in terms of how your young person thinks is such useful information, but not only for them and building their own self-awareness, but for you in how you build on that relationship with them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it opens that conversation up, doesn't it? It's kind of, oh, you actually think quite differently or you need this and you didn't realise. So how can we work to make all of that happen? How can we communicate better? And I think, you know, if we all did a bit more of that, I don't know, it would change things a lot, wouldn't
SPEAKER_00:it? I think, this is Andy going to his normal extreme crazy place now, I think that should be the first conversation that you ever have with somebody when you meet someone new whether it's in the pub or if it's through a friend or if it's a work thing or a potential relationship or whatever it is describe how your brain works tell me how your brain works because we make so many assumptions on people's reactions and behaviours and things that they say and do and quite often nine times out of ten we get it wrong but wouldn't it be a much nicer world to live in if we actually genuinely understood each other and
SPEAKER_02:understood ourselves because I wonder if people wouldn't be able to answer that question good point
SPEAKER_00:actually what would it take oh wow what would it take for somebody to be able to work that out about themselves
SPEAKER_01:yeah and it's so powerful like someone I worked with did that in a new project I was working with them on it and I loved it and I carried that on where she was kind of okay this is how I work how do you like to work how do you kind of do your best work and things what do you really struggle with oh we both do that so let's work out kind of a way that we can help each other on it and that was right from the start and we had the most amazing experience together you know smashed out some amazing work from all of that and I was like that's the first time I've done that like with someone and thank you so much for initiating that because you know we just got it and other projects I've worked on have just not been as good because it was like why aren't you answering me why aren't you doing this and causing problems if you don't actually communicate that absolutely absolutely
SPEAKER_00:well we'll bring it to a close there Thank you, Yasmin, for joining us and sharing Alex's story and the conversation around neurodiversity and neurotypical experiences in schools and stuff. If anyone wants to get hold of you off the back of this, what's the easiest way to do it?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if you can share my email, but you can go to my website, the person who got the solutions. You can just fill the form in there as well, get in contact. I'd love to talk to anyone that's got views on this.
SPEAKER_00:Brilliant. And we'll pop a note in the show notes with the website address and everything in any last thoughts from you
SPEAKER_02:i've got i've still got so many thoughts honestly i feel like i feel like this again like like always happens with us i can see more episodes off the back of this because we've touched on education we've touched on young people we've touched on neurodiversity our own self-awareness and image there's so much there i think we're only just starting
SPEAKER_00:that's it brilliant okay well until next time Thank you very much. Well, that's it for this episode of Why Not and What If, where the conversations get messy, magical and a little bit rebellious. If it made you think, laugh or rage text your mates, job done. That's what we're here for. Got a topic you think we should dive into? Drop us a line at letstalk at whynotwhatif.com. Seriously, your ideas fuel this chaos. And don't forget to follow, subscribe, shout about us in your WhatsApp groups, on LinkedIn and come back next week for more brutally honest occasionally unhinged and always human conversations see you next time
