Why Not? & What If?
A podcast about life, work, well-being and the beautiful chaos in between. Hosted by Andy Cracknell, a creative whirlwind and a disruptor of dull thinking and allergies to doing things the usual way. And Siobhán Godden who listens through the noise to what really matters.
Think of Siobhan as the calm in Andy's storm!!!
In each episode, we’ll dig into the stuff that shapes how we live and lead – from gender equality and parenting, to burnout, brave decisions, and big ‘what ifs’.
Why Not? & What If?
From Nappies to Networking: The Guilt, Grit and Growth of Working Mums
Working mums navigating guilt, ambition, identity shifts, growth, resilience.
Got a story or a view? Email letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
— we might do a follow-up episode with your takes.
Welcome to Why Not and What If?
SPEAKER_01:And
SPEAKER_02:I'm Siobhan Godden, a HR consultant, coach and the one who listens through the noise to what really matters. Think of me as the calm to Andy's creative storm. This is Andy Cracknell, creative whirlwind, disruptor of dull thinking and allergic to doing things the
SPEAKER_00:usual way. Thanks Siobhan. I'm also a marketing and communications consultant. And this is...
SPEAKER_02:The podcast where we explore the messy, magical intersection of life, work, leadership and all the bits we're not supposed to talk about. Let's get into it. This week... We're going to be talking about nappies to networking and work, which is all about mothers who have had a baby or more than one baby and their work life after they've had their child and what that means.
SPEAKER_00:And this is another one from our listener in Australia. Jasmine asked us to have a look into this topic. So I'm quite excited about this one.
SPEAKER_02:And it just proves actually this is a worldwide topic. challenge across yes i mean well i suppose you could say in western in western worlds and kind of capitalist environments perhaps more so but it is a topic that comes up a lot in my world anyway and probably something we don't talk about that much because we talk about the gender pay gap which we might touch on now we talk about opportunities and how they're still male dominance in industry and things like that. But we don't talk about so much what's actually going on for those mothers.
SPEAKER_00:There's the fatherhood bonus element of this as well. And this is something I had no clue about. So for context, I've got four kids. One who passed away when he was nine weeks. He would be 20. My oldest is 19. I've got a 13-year-old and a three-year-old. So huge, huge. spectrum and it never you know when my ex-wife fell pregnant or when my wife fell pregnant it just the thought never even really occurred to me that they that either of them would feel any particular pain or suffering aside from the obvious pain and suffering that you go through when you're having a baby so the fatherhood bonus when we were talking about this topic a few weeks back when we were working out what episodes we were going to be covering I couldn't get my head around it because I took paternity leave which is another one we got to cover at some point because I've got two weeks but it never even entered my head and then when when my three-year-old was born so we're talking obviously three years ago I saw the real impact of it on me Emma because she's she's her own business so she's a consultant and I saw the widespread impact one from the way the clients engaged with her and interacted with her and things they said to her through to well, all of the things that we're going to talk about today, but game on, let's go. No,
SPEAKER_02:and where do we start? I mean, one of them is we talked a little bit when we were chatting about this subject about the motherhood guilt, but it's even more subtle than that, I think, because with the dad, if it is that you're a heterosexual couple and you have a male and female role models and things like that, what I've observed is Modern day dads do have a bit of push and pull around wanting to be with their kids more. They are a lot more hands on than they ever have been in any other generation, I would say, which is great. But very much deeper than that, I don't think they have the guilt. And I don't know if that's a societal thing or a biological thing, but also the other observation I've had, and I've definitely fallen into this, is women respond to the environment that they're in and the stage that their kids are at. Very subconsciously. So it's like, oh, my kids are really little and they need me physically. I'll work part time or not at all. Oh, actually, they've started school now. Maybe I'll increase my hours. All these jobs come up. I might apply for that. And I remember my boss at the time, my youngest had just started school. And my boss at the time had got a promotion. And she said to me, you should go for my job. I was like, really? Do you think I'm ready? She's like, absolutely. And she said to me, and the time is perfect because both your kids are at school now. And she is also a working mother. And I was like, yeah, absolutely right. She's all about timing. And it's interesting because my husband's had a number of promotions and none of them linked into where our kids were at in their schooling. It didn't even occur. Very subconscious thing.
SPEAKER_00:That's an interesting point because when my youngest was born, I had, so I worked for myself, obviously. And I had a couple of static clients that I was working with. So life was fairly flexible and easy enough to kind of manage and be involved. But then I took a contract on with another client when he was a year old, which meant I was away from home three days a week. Now, of course, there was the consideration around Emma's going to be on her own with the little one and the 13-year-old. And what's that going to look like? But it wasn't the same thought process. as Emma had around trying to balance the kids, the house, me not being here and all that stuff. And I feel a sense of guilt around that because I feel like I was inconsiderate. But then all of my male mates I talked to were exactly the same. It was your blinkers are on. Effectively, you work nine to five and then you're at home and you do the stuff with the kids in the evening, at the weekends, in the mornings and stuff. Such an eye opener because the impact on Emma was very different.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Very, very different. And I suppose it's priority, isn't it? Because is it that the shadow of this societal expectation that is misogynistic, that says the man goes out and is the breadwinner and the wife stays at home and looks after the kids and that's hardwired into us or into me as a man that I'm the protector and provider and that gets in the way of me having a thought process that aligns with Emma's. But then the last year has been The flip side of it, because Emma's business this year is booming, so she's doing a lot of work. Mine's been really, really busy. There's a lot going on, but I have more flexibility in what I'm doing. And therefore, I'm focusing a lot more on supporting the kids and getting them to and from school and childminders in the morning and walking the dog and doing all that kind of stuff. So in our relationship, we're 50-50 over time. But at that point where it really matters, straight after she had Otto... straight after she had our first our three-year-old we were not balanced we were way out of whack I was all about going out earning money and bringing the money in and not conscious of the impact of what was going on on Emma which was yeah that that scared me a little bit when I got the reality check for it
SPEAKER_02:yeah and I think it is it's a reality check that money don't get but also the other the other interesting thing that you you're saying there and I This is a trap that I've fallen into. But I went to this event in Cambridge University the other day. And they were talking about female entrepreneurs and investments and all this kind of stuff. But the point is, the president of this college is a girl. It's a female college in Cambridge. She was interviewing this woman who was incredibly successful. And she said, you know, how have you got to where you are? What's going to spur you on? And she said, I'm really lucky because my husband is a stay-at-home dad. And he looked after the kids. And the president of this college turned around and said, a man would never say they are lucky that their wife is at home looking after the kids. It's amazing that your husband is doing that. Kudos to him. This is fantastic. But you're not lucky. That hasn't just fallen into your luck by luck. That's been a choice. It's been a choice in the partner you've made. It's a choice in the life that you've made. It's not luck. And I thought that's interesting because when my two were really little, they went part time, but I would have to go to an office quite often. Now, my husband was working from home and he has done for years and years and years. So he'd quite often do the school run. And it was funny because he would sometimes wear his polo shirt, his work branded polo shirt, because he'd be like, people think I don't have a job. And he felt really really kind of challenged by that and he was the only man at the school gate but I will say I'm really really lucky I've been able to hold my job because he works from home
SPEAKER_00:That's interesting because I've never realised this but that's the same insecurity I had and have is that when people know it's it's in any given time period, me that's doing all the running around. And even that sounds derogatory, doesn't it? Sounds like it's me doing all the running around. So that's opened a whole can of worms because I've said this in other episodes, but I grew up where my mum and dad had a 50-50 split of the responsibility. So my dad, but it was clear that my dad was the 1940s born man who goes out. He was a company director. He went out and earned a ton of money, ran his own business, very driven, very, whatever. But the flip side was when I had the engagement with him in the evenings and weekends and stuff, he was 100% present. He wasn't off thinking about other stuff. But in my head, I look back at it and I can see, because my mum was a career woman as well, so I can see the 50-50 balance. Now, I have always said to Emma, and this is probably being a bit too open, but I will do whatever it takes to promote her right only I don't use that word but her her dreams in terms of her career and everything else because when I met her she just started her business up and she was fired up and energetic and passionate about it and she still is and I don't want her being inconvenienced So that's where I come from, is that I would quite happily be a stay-at-home dad, partly, probably, if I'm being honest, because I've got ADHD and there's this perception around us being lazy. It's not that at all. It's not lazy.
SPEAKER_02:It's the opposite, more like. Exactly. It's
SPEAKER_00:because I think somewhere in my psyche, I think I can manage that and working and everything else. So I suppose from that, what's that expression? I'm metrosexual. I hate that expression. Well, do
SPEAKER_02:you do skincare and your hair and everything?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay. So no, that's not, yeah, no, that's not. Look at me. Yeah, so I'm not of the mindset, no, I've got to be the one that goes out and works. My mindset is whichever one of us gets the work in, that's who does it at the time because consultancy work is like that and we're both consultants, so we balance things. You know, invariably Emma's always busy when I'm not and vice versa. We've been lucky like that. We've never had a period where we've both been really busy.
SPEAKER_02:We were both employed when my kids were little, but we'd have arguments around who had the most important meeting and who was at that meeting and how important is that meeting to decide who gets to take the meeting.
SPEAKER_00:That's it. But you see, this is the thing, because you made the point that your husband would wear his work branded shirt because he was worried about what people would think. That is such a powerful thing because it's like that harks back to I'm the man. Therefore, if I'm at the school gate, it means I must be out of work. So when I would take my 13 year old to school. I would either be overly vocal or. within the circles that I was working and I was working for myself and that I was able to be flexible I would rock up to school wearing something that was branded either a client or my own business or whatever even to the point I can't believe I did this I got those you can buy magnetic mounts for the sides of your van or your car that have your business name and contact details on And I have one of those made up and put on the car. It's just me saying, yeah, I am working.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But why does it matter?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Why does it matter? Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Because the priority is you do what's right for your kids. It's not about what you look like or anyway. Yeah. So that's an interesting point.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So it is interesting. So we talked a little bit about mother's guilt, but that would imply there is a father's guilt, but for a different reason. They want to be there for their kids, but then they feel guilty about that. It's almost like women feel guilty because we want to work, whereas men feel guilty because they want to be with their kids.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. There's another interesting point there because that guilt is driven by societal expectation and probably wouldn't have been felt back in the 1940s by women at home looking after the kids because society said... That's what you do. Right or wrong, that's what society said happened. So there wouldn't have been any maternal guilt. And then on the male side of it, would men have felt guilty about not being at home with the kids? And if you look at things like, is it Mary Poppins, where you undertone in that, where the dads very much know the kids aren't here to be seen or heard. I'm here earning money and when I get home, they shut up and let me relax.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, how times change.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And interesting, we were talking about time. So my grandmother, after the war, so she was in the Blitz in London. And after the war, she got a job at the Telephone Exchange, which was the height of technology at the time. And when she got married, she was expected to quit, but she didn't. It was really unusual in them days. And she did work, carry on working. But my granddad was a very hands-on dad. He was a lovely granddad and he was a lovely dad, according to my parents. from my mum and but his mum who's a bit of an old battle axe to be honest she used to have a right go and say oh I can't believe she's making him do the bedtime routine and give bath to kids when he gets home from a long day at work she's making him do that and was having a go at him like oh how dare she be so lazy but he actually wanted but he wanted to he liked that time with the kids but yeah so it was quite ahead of their time really
SPEAKER_00:but then it begs the question doesn't it because like my so I'm the middle one of three and my mum was an air stewardess before she had and that was back in the day where that was a really high profile job so she she flew for BOAC and then subsequently British Airways and she was a chief purser so so she'd worked her way up in that career to be chief purser on flights which was three or four promotions I think and Then she had my older brother and went back to ground crew. So she was checking and boarding. Now that was because she couldn't go back to flying because it was, you know, she
SPEAKER_02:would be taken away.
SPEAKER_00:That's it. Then she had me, went back and did nannying where she was flying unaccompanied minors, medium haul. So US and Europe, that kind of thing. Then my little brother came along and then she completely changed careers and became an estate agent. Oh, wow. Which is a hell of a gift. Hang on, did she? Yeah, so she was an estate agent, then she went into construction. And I just, and she was really driven, like she was really career driven. But I never got a sense of there was ever any guilt because the balance that my mum and dad had was that when one of them wasn't there, the other one always was. So then that brings in the questioning around what is and we can't this is a massive sidetrack so we don't get sidetracked off on this one but actually what is the right balance is it both parents being present all the time or is it a balance between the two now I think it's a balance between the two because when you're getting quality time with each parent individually but then you get those periods of time where you're with both that means you can develop better relationships because there's a three-way relationship there there's your relationship with your mum your relationship with your dad people that are children of heterosexual couples but it's the same across the board and then the relationship that you have with both of them together wow well we're what 10 minutes in and we've already uncovered a load of stuff exactly but you see that so so i think and i'm saying this genuinely i think that's something we do need to talk about because It's hard enough being in a relationship with kids, but how single parents manage. My ex-wife did it for 15 years, and she did an incredible job of it, but how she's managed it, I just don't know. We were co-parenting, but that's not the same as being two people in the same house bringing up a child. Okay, so let's get back on track. I can't believe it's me saying that. so the guilt of being a professional working mum when you're trying to be perfect at both roles and feeling like you haven't mastered either very well
SPEAKER_02:yeah I think as well what I've observed being a working mum and being around other working mums and that tends to be more when I was dropping my kids off at nursery that would be the place because that's where all the working mums go because you have like preschools and things like that but it tends to be the nurse private nurseries because they cover the hours and they're always washing around and there is that sense of it's the fact that you you've chosen to have a child and you want to have a life outside of that child and I think that's healthy personally I think because that child's going to grow up and move on and then what you're going to have left so I think it's healthy to have a life outside of it and have an identity and be a role model and all those good things but But there is that very subconscious kind of, oh, I'm leaving my child here to go off and do something very selfishly, even though it's not selfish at all. But there is that element of, am I being selfish?
SPEAKER_00:The point that you're making there is really important, because what you're saying is, is having a baby or having a child to someone who it's important for them, so someone who really wants to have children. There is an inference in some sections of society that says, no, if you have a child, that's it. As a woman, you've just got to stop and be, you know, that's it. That's your life for 15, 18 years is to be there and serve the child. I had a conversation with a child psychologist who said something very powerful to me. And they said, you are not being inserted into your child's life. Yeah. to have a child and then stop living your life because then your child grows up seeing its parents as being hollow shells of their former selves which they have no reference point on and therefore they can't see what life should be like with or without children and it also teaches them about balance of decision making. So it goes back to the point you made earlier about house husband versus house wife. And yes, the gender equality there, but actually that conscious decision, whether it's going to be a husband that looks after the kids or the wife that looks after the kids. But the thing I really like about this, and it's quite a controversial thing, is that with my 13-year-old and my three-year-old, they are getting the same exposure that I had growing up, which was seeing both my parents really driven, determined people going out and fighting for what they wanted and to achieve and excel in life, which is exactly what Emma and I do. We're both running businesses. We're both consultants. We both work really hard. We don't really get a lot of time to play ourselves as individuals, but the kids don't. They see us spending time on ourselves, but they also get all the love and support that they want And no, you can never be 100% sure, but our feeling is that they feel like they are safe, they're loved, they're protected, they're getting the nutrition of life. But they're also seeing two people that are go-getters going out and getting, which is so important. So I actually think this concept around, no, you're a mother, you've got to stay at home. I mean, aside from the fact that that's an outdated sexist view anyway. And yes, I get the biological bit. I understand that. But I don't think it's healthy for the kids to see that because the key point here is how can you teach your children, whether they're boys or girls, about gender equality when they're growing up in an environment which is so blatantly not equal?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it isn't equal and it still isn't equal. And I feel a little bit like we're going backwards, I have to say. I think our generation is the first that were a lot more equal. There was a lot more dads. taking that active role, wanting to take that active role. But it feels like in my kids' generation, it's going back old school again. And I'm not quite sure why. But that's probably another topic, another whole episode in itself, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00:It's an interesting point, though, isn't it? I mean, there's a disparity between when my older two were born and then my younger two, because when my older two were born, I was work-focused.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, work focus and house building focus. Literally
SPEAKER_02:put in a roof over your head. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:exactly. Well, yeah, we bought a mid-terrace house, which we effectively knocked down and rebuilt, or rather it fell down, so we rebuilt it.
SPEAKER_01:You had to
SPEAKER_00:rebuild it. But that's a conversation for another podcast, because I look back at it now, and that was quite funny. But at the time, it actually wasn't very funny at all. But yeah. So back then, I was very much geared for I need to go out and work and I need to build this house, whereas there's an argument around necessity there. But now it's a far more, I'm going to get shouted at for saying this, but it's a far more liberal approach where we just take it in turns depending on who's busy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that's exactly what we're like. And interestingly, I had a friend who we were talking about our kids and parenting in general. And she said, not in a derogatory way or negative way, she said, yeah, but you two are really liberal because it was all to do with the kids' behavior and stuff. And I stopped and thought, do you know what we are actually? Because that kind of liberal tendency goes through everything, goes through our parenting style, how we operate, more so than many other people I know. And I think that I don't know I don't think that's a conscious thing. I just think it works
SPEAKER_00:for us. But liberality is aligned with morality and value, so isn't it? Yes,
SPEAKER_01:very much.
SPEAKER_00:It makes sense why it's comfortable, because if those are your natural morals and your standing in life, you would only notice discomfort if you were trying to live outside of that, whether it be conservative or, and I mean conservative with a small c, or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:So from the guilt perspective, and this is the bit where it really comes into play, or kind of to the point that we're playing to here, is you've got to consider the damage it does to the mum. So let's paint the scenario here. So you have a baby. You're off for the required amount of time, whatever that is, after you've had your baby. Yeah. But then you go back into work and you're coming home, either picking child up from child mother. You kind of touched on this earlier on. The guilt that I perceived. So, well, let's use a real life example. So when my three-year-old was born, about two months after he was born, one of our clients had a fairly major event going on. And Emma had been involved in the planning process prior to going on to maternity leave, which she didn't start until... or actually until the day he was born because he was six weeks early she woke up with the plan of coming down into the office and getting on a load of work calls with clients and then all of a sudden she's in hospital but yeah so she had she had him and then within well it was It should have been six weeks because he was born by emergency C-section, but she was actually on calls after four weeks, getting the event up and running. And then she was going to venues and stuff with him when he was four or five weeks old. So she literally jumped straight back into it. And there were periods of time where the guilt was, you know, I could see it on her, like she was dragging him dragging him these are her words not mine dragging him around london going up to events or this event venue to sort things out meeting with the client you know having to structure meetings so that they were when he was likely to be asleep and all this kind of stuff but then there would be those times when he would be awake and then i'd have him and she'd feel guilty because when it was she felt it was putting on me and it was time she wasn't with him and all the rest of it And I can't talk to this because I'm not a woman. I don't know. But the guilt element of that, I can only imagine, must be insanely painful because you feel guilt towards your client because you're not 100% focused on that. You feel guilt towards your child because you're not 100% focused on them. There's also the biological impact of having a baby and how it depletes your systems in terms of energy and mental capacity and everything else because of exhaustion and lack of sleep and all this other stuff. It's a no-win situation in any scenario, surely.
SPEAKER_02:It is. And I remember driving home from work on my way to the nursery to pick the kids up, one of the kids up. And I'd be thinking the whole time on that journey, all the things I hadn't done during the day that I still needed to get done. And then I would, because it was almost like you have to compartmentalize So I was still in work mode and I'd be thinking, oh, I need to do that and I need to do this. I'd get there, pick the kid up and then I'd be thinking, okay, so they need to have dinner. We've got to do this. We've got to do that. And then I completely switched my brain. And then they'd go to bed and then I'd be back going, oh, but I haven't done all those things in the daytime that I meant to do. So it's almost like you're compartmentalizing things, but then it comes back to haunt you later on when you get to the next part of the day, I suppose. So you're always flipping between the, What I haven't done at work and what I haven't done as a mother quite often, or what I still need to be doing, is that kind of mentality. It's odd.
SPEAKER_00:So you're constantly firefighting?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, constantly. And you're constantly thinking about... And that's another point, actually, is this mental load that gets spoken about a lot, rightly so. And it's really, really interesting because I see it playing out all the time. Because as I said, my husband, Simon, worked from home for years. really hands-on, pick the kids up from school when they were little, does dinner every night, you know, could no arguments at all in terms of what he physically would do. Really great dad. But I don't know why this tends to fall on the woman, but generally it does. It's things like birthdays. The kid has a birthday party, got to get that kid a present. nieces and nephews have birthdays then you've got to think about oh it's World Book Day and all the teachers have just sent an email about some carol concert next week that nobody knew about and it's all those kind of things that seem to fall on the mother for some reason and it was like I even had this the other day where my son had been booked in for a haircut and his haircut was at the same time as I had this meeting so I said to Simon can you take him for his haircut because I've got this meeting and he said I don't know I'll check my diary And I was like, no, you need to tell me now because I need to cancel his appointment or change his appointment if he can't do it. So I just need to know now. Just tell me now. So then he had to go and log on and check his calendar and stuff. He never said he couldn't do it. And in fact, he did do it. He was able to take him. That wasn't the issue. It was just the mental load of organizing these things and thinking about, oh, he needs a haircut. I need to put that on. That is the mental load, which sounds in isolation, small things, but there are lots of small things that build up into a big thing.
SPEAKER_00:But the language you're using is really interesting because, and I think maybe you've hit a raw nerve, so this might be a slightly skewed reaction to what you've just said. So I carry around a massive amount of guilt because Emma's the one that always thinks about the kids' parties and the social activities at school. And she's the one that gets the emails from people like school and nursery and everything else saying there's this, that and the rest of it to do. And she never asks me to pick that stuff up. She just goes, you know, she'll do it. And I always feel guilty because she's busier with work than I am at the moment because she's taken on a couple of massive contracts and the dynamics of those have changed. So that's... put a greater demand on her which is great from one perspective but then it's also not part of my psyche to think about actually it's her cousin it's one of the kids cousins birthdays or something so I need to go out and organise this and organise that and it's really odd but it brings into question the gender roles in parenting and the stereotypes and how we perceive ourselves and whether my lack of foresight around those things is because I don't have to think like that because Emma does it all, or whether it's because I've been brought up not to think that way because I see that as a female's role, which is sexist, or whether it's just that psychologically we're wired differently and therefore it doesn't tally up. Now, it could be any or all of the above, but then that reinforces the point I was going to make, which is that the guilt load on a mum... has to be infinitely bigger than on the dad because it goes back to the original point is that you feel guilty for not being a good enough mum because you're working but then you feel guilty for not being a good enough employee consultant whatever it might be because you're also thinking about your child so there's this distraction both ways
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_00:So from a self-confidence and self-esteem perspective, how do you find that balance and how do you process it so that you're not effectively self-sabotaging and you're protecting yourself? Because ultimately, if you carry on down that route of feeling guilty both ways, you become ineffective at everything. Your self-esteem and self-confidence get affected, which then impacts your child's perception of you and your employer's stroke client's perception of you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So where's the cutoff point? What's the coping strategy or the coping mechanism?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's acknowledging some of this stuff that goes on. And that's why people are talking about the mental load so much now. Well, I think they are. I'm hearing it a lot. But that could be just because of the circles I'm in, actually. Because what tends to happen is it's quite subconscious, I would say. So it tends to... get to a point where it's just such a fine balance it takes one thing like well booked I'll use that as an example again because that was always my thing that was like pushed me over the edge like I never did elf on the shelf because I was like that's just a chore for me that's something else I'm going to forget to do so I'm just not even going to go there I knew my limits it's having those I think it's that having that capacity to think that way of knowing where your limits are and allowing yourself those limits which when the guilt kicks in is when you don't give yourself that remit of, well, everyone else has got an elf on the shelf, so I should have an elf on the shelf. But that was my line. I'm like, no, I really cannot do that. And I remember having a conversation with my daughter when she became aware that most of her friends had an elf on the shelf. And I sat her down and I said, well, this is the situation. I explained it to her. She believed in Santa and all the rest of it. But the elf on the shelf is just one step too far. And I explain the situation and they never mentioned it ever again. So it's knowing, it's picking your battles, I think, but having those conversations. And if you're employed or a consultant, having those conversations with clients as well. It's being protective of your time. That's a learned thing as well, because you do end up over-promising and under-delivering potentially. So it's being really, really strict on yourself on your boundaries. But also, and this is going to be a controversial opinion or unpopular opinion, but I do see from a HR perspective, I see mothers in the workplace where this is on the basis that there's a good employer. So I've been lucky I only work with good employers. If you're not a good employer, I choose not to work with you. And one of my employers was great. I never had an issue going back to work with them. Maternity leave was great. flexible working when I came back was great. They were fantastic about it. And they were an engineering company, so they were proactively wanting more women. And there's a stat that when female engineers get to reach about 40, they just disappear from the work market. They're not leaving their employment. They're leaving employment altogether. And there's got to be a link there with motherhood and the balance. So On the basis that it's a good employer, they've got, you know, all of that is in place. I do still see women become martyrs potentially and not let the husband or partner do more and take on that mental load. And sometimes what I will then do with those, if I can see this is a car crash waiting to happen, a bit of a coaching conversation around, okay, so why, because usually it's coming from a place of guilt. or a place of, I guess, over-motherling, mother-ringing, that word I've just made up. It comes out in different ways with different people for whatever reasons they might have. But it's having that conversation around where are your boundaries and what your expectations are. Sometimes it is, let the dad make a mistake and learn from it. Yes, he can't put a nappy on, but he'll soon learn when he gets wee in his eye from his son.
SPEAKER_00:That's something I've suffered from on a few occasions.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I think all boy parents have suffered from that at some point.
SPEAKER_00:I think it raises an interesting point as well, though, because, you know, we're debating a topic which, again, is as simple as mums feel guilty about not being a good enough mum and not being a good enough colleague, consultant, co-worker, whatever. And you made that point about the martyr mother. The other thing that we just... can't factor into any or every podcast is the fact that so as fathers and mothers our approach to parenthood is based on what we are hardwired and taught as we grow up so there's going to be a huge disparity between people and I suppose this comes out in your comment around the realisation about being defined with your boundaries and stuff because this is something that Emma really struggled with because she is so passionate about what she does and she's so passionate about her clients she's not a people pleaser but she wants to make sure she delivers because she's got a reputation to maintain she's fairly well known in the industry and she's fairly well respected she needs to maintain that so the the ability to set the boundaries in the field of work she works in is not easy because it requires an element of flexibility but then it's about setting the
SPEAKER_01:boundaries
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah but That's it. But then there's also women that work in careers as employees. When you factor in the discrimination against women and the fact that women have to, I can't remember the statistic, is it three times harder than a man to get to the same place or something?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That puts the pressure on in terms of the gender discrimination piece. Inadvertently, or not, well, inadvertently is the wrong word, but because women are mothers, biological facts can't change that. And I'm not entirely convinced I'd want to go through that pain, to be honest. We've had the debate as to what's more painful, having a baby or being kicked somewhere. And she won that argument straight away. There was definitely no argument from me there. Yeah, it's that society and employers are putting a mental load on top of a mental load because of that discrimination that's already there. So effectively, I suppose, speculatively, what you could say is that A woman who's just had a baby is having to work six times harder as opposed to three times harder of a woman who hasn't had a baby to get to the same place a man gets just based on the fact that all this extra stuff's going on and there are these expectations, both self-expectations and projected expectations. It just, this is where... Forgive me, but this is where coaches and HR consultants and professionals like you are so important because there is a reality check that's needed. And some of that is around a reality check to employer stroke society. But actually, more importantly, from a coaching and counselling perspective, there's also that need for mums, for people to say, but what is your priority and where should your boundaries sit? And if you balance that out and work those bits out and know and understand which battles to fight. I love the elf in the shelf thing. We did that for two years. And then after that, I said to him, there's no way I'm doing it next year. Because after about six days, I'm fairly creative, right? But after six days, I was Googling what you could do with elf on the shelf because I just didn't have the brain space to do it. You
SPEAKER_02:go to bed and think, the bloody elf, I've forgotten about the elf again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. But the number of times I'd be up at two o'clock in the morning because I'd wake up in a sweat thinking, God, she's going to be up in four hours and I've not even thought about Elf on the Shelf. And then I, oh. No, so, yeah, anyway. But then you've got the impact that it has on your career advancement. Because if you think, you've had a baby, you're now at this phase where you're back in work and you're riddled with guilt because in your mind, you're not good enough at anything. Yeah. How are you then supposed to be able to put the energy into career advancement?
SPEAKER_02:And it's not even that. It's also this other inherent problem we have, and this isn't just for mothers, this is females generally, is if you see a job advertised and there's, I don't know, say there's like 10 different responsibilities or activities or skills or whatever. If a man has got five of them, he'll go, Okay, I want to apply for that. I'll learn the other five. If a woman can do nine of them, she'll go, I'm not going to apply for that because I can't do that one thing. That's a real barrier to get women to even put their hat in the ring for a promotion before we even start any of the other conversations because that's just inherently how we are.
SPEAKER_00:And then if you factor in The additional lack of self-confidence, self-esteem because of having a baby and the hormonal impact. And you're talking about a woman who's not just had a baby that will not go for a job if they've got nine out of 10.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And then you've got on top of that, the discrimination that does happen. Now, as I said, I work for great people, so I've never experienced anything personally, but I volunteer for a charity called Pregnant and Screwed. And it's basically women phone in. It's usually women. I've had a few dads phone in, though, actually, asking for advice on situations that have come up at work when they've announced that they're pregnant. And I tell you, it's horrendous what's going on. And they're getting away with it. They're getting away with it. Now, the good companies that I work for, where they want a diverse organization, they want women in high-value roles, they're doing the right things. But then there's other industries and companies that they don't have that as part of their values or part of their strategy. So they just downright discriminate and get away with it.
SPEAKER_00:Give us some examples of the things that you see the good companies doing.
SPEAKER_02:Good companies. So they're doing things like flexible working. So working from home has been a deal breaker because now I don't advocate for working from home full time with a tiny baby because you can't do both. You really can't.
SPEAKER_00:It's not good for you mentally
SPEAKER_02:either. Really not good for you. But being able to work from home It takes the pressure off doing the nursery run, for example, or putting a washing load on. You know, silly things like that make a huge difference. They do things like they'll have a female mentoring program because that challenges the things like the confidence Why aren't you applying for that role? You can do it. You know, those kind of conversations. It builds their internal network as well, which massively helps. Things like when they're advertising roles, using AI and tools to see what language it's using. So you can actually pull out, then this is really masculine language, very subconscious. But actually, if you swap this word for this word, you might attract a more diverse audience. all of people. So I think there's some really clever things that can happen. Quotas is not one of them. So I do work for companies that say, well, we're going to have three women in senior leadership roles, and that'll be our quota. So they almost positively discriminate. Now, I think that probably did have a place in the early days when they had to really turn that needle. Whereas now, I'm not a massive fan of that. But I If you're giving the women all the tools they need to get in front of that person for that role in the first place, then if they're the best candidate, they get the job. That's where you want to get to.
SPEAKER_00:And that's the problem with positive discrimination because the positive discrimination thing is a sticking plaster to cover up the fact that you're not actually addressing the issue at its core. And the core way, specifically what we're talking about, is to make sure that the women that you've got in your organisation have got what they need to progress because then you don't need the quotas because we're going to select X number of women and that actually you're equipping women. And it works both sides. So commercially it makes sense because if you're equipping women to perform in those roles. They're going to perform in those roles. They're capable of it. They're just not being given the tools to do it. Then you're looking at it from the commercial side of it. It's great because it works. But then from the moral standing, you're driving a more equal basis anyway, where you're treating men and women the same and giving them everything they need, the tools to move forwards, which is gives you the vision the external view in of the organizer the brand employer reputation as being an employer of choice because you're treating people fairly but actually you're advocating the fact that yes there are differences between men and women and the approach is different you know because like we've just spent the last hour or so talking about you when a woman has a baby, all of the above factors come into play, which men don't get. So that's the difference. And if you're addressing both sides, then you're facilitating everyone. So it works.
SPEAKER_02:And you make a really good point about fathers. So my husband would, when the kids were little and they needed picking up, he would block out. So when you're in nursery, it was fine because they do like, we'd pick them up at like 6pm. So we did a full day to work. But when they started school, that's a whole nother minefield because then you're like, I never forget looking at the school timetable going, how many holidays? How on earth are we going to cope with this? What are we going to do? And what he used to do, because we were lucky that our school was in like a five minute walking distance, but he would block out 3.30 in his calendar every day. He'd just block it out so nobody could put meetings in and he'd put school run. And nobody... challenged him on that. Nobody said he couldn't do that. Everyone would look in his diary and go, oh, I can't book a new meeting at that time. I'll book it when he gets back. It was never an issue. And I think that's really quite unusual. And he also worked for an engineering company that, you know, got standards in terms of values and equality and things like that. So, yeah, you're going to go and pick up your kids. Okay, that's fine. Why is that a problem?
SPEAKER_00:I know organizations that if they saw that in your diary, you'd get sacked for it.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:How dare you do something for your family on your work time? But you see, there's an interesting approach here because I worked... So there are two occasions where I've been in leadership roles when I've had teams of... Well, one of them, I had a team for 15. And then in the other one, I had 10 direct... Each was six direct reports beneath them. But I had a management structure of about 60. And... The first three months I was in that role, people would be sneaking off doing all kinds of stuff and not saying anything. And I couldn't understand why they wouldn't tell me. It's like, well, if you told me, it wouldn't have been a problem. But it's because the culture was such within that organization and generically, unless you work with a really good employer, that you just don't do that. And it's like, look, I don't care what hours you work as long as you get the work done because I'm paying you for the work. I'm not paying you for the time. Absolutely. So if you have a month's worth of work and you do it in a week and take three weeks off, a bit of an extreme example, but you get my point. I don't care because you've delivered.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. All on output. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Very good point.
SPEAKER_00:If they moved away from KPIs and moved to an output-based thing, that would take– it won't fix the problem overnight, don't get me wrong, but from a parent perspective, it would make life so much easier because And back to your point, this culture around the school pickup time, did you know psychologically everybody hits a wall at about three o'clock in the afternoon?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So that hour is not going to be that productive anyway. So let your people pick up their kids. And as long as they either make the time up if you're that way inclined, which I'm not, or they cover the task at some point, why does it matter?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Exactly. It
SPEAKER_00:drives me nuts.
SPEAKER_02:It does drive me nuts as well. And it's something I, with my HR hat on, I'm the same page as you. It's all about output. Are they doing their job? Are they going that extra mile? Because they will if you don't measure them on KPIs and spoon feed them and micromanage them.
SPEAKER_00:That's it. Yeah. So, I mean, look, again, there's a whole other topic there around the conversation around transitioning from KPIs to output. Because, I just think any organization that's working on KPIs is working in the dark ages these days. And it's not even like the science isn't out there. Now, there are organizations that have moved over to output performance organizations. And the employee engagement and wellbeing is so much better than KPI managed organisations. But yet organisations still insist on having these KPIs that are just, they're counterproductive. And the cost of the business ultimately is that their recruitment costs go up and their staff retention drops. There's no argument, it's there. But that's, I'm not going to get on that soapbox because that's a massive distraction. So back to the original point. So the career advancement opportunities for working mums, I mean, You've touched on the flexible working and working from home and the positives and negatives from that and the benefits of coaching and development for people coming back in, for mums coming back into the workplace. We've also kind of touched on the gender discrimination that already puts an unfair foundation down, which adds more stress onto that mental overload and the guilt and everything else. When you think about the career transitions, which is the other thing
SPEAKER_01:that
SPEAKER_00:comes into this, My mum was an example. She went from being an air stewardess to then working as an estate agent and lastly construction industry. There are so many considerations that I don't think employers necessarily consider and men probably aren't aware of or consider. But actually, there is an element around having a baby that redefines who you are as a person, which naturally would mean that your aspirations in life will change, your desires, the things that excite you and interest you are going to change. But I worked with a lady who was working in the insurance sector, and I did some coaching sessions with her just before she went off on maternity leave. And those coaching conversations were around the career she could go into because she didn't think she'd want to stick with the one that she was in once she'd had a baby, not because of the employer. The employer were great, but just because her mindset had changed about stuff. So what are the considerations there that employers and mums and dads might want to think about?
SPEAKER_02:I think one of the things is the purpose. Because we really talk about moving away from KPIs and outputs. There's something around, and this is a generational thing as well, a company having a purpose to increase employee engagement and people buying into that purpose. Because one of the things that I've come across quite a bit is your point about you change as a person when you have a child, but your priorities shift. And actually, if I'm going to give up my time with my baby to do work, yes, I'll earn some money. Yes, it's maybe a career for me, but it's got to be worthwhile doing. It's got to have a bigger purpose to it other than just making money or, you know, I'm moving emails around. Actually, there needs to be something bigger. That sounds a bit grand, doesn't it? So if an employee from their culture perspective has a very clear purpose that people are bought into, that works. that's going to keep those working mothers engaged in it. If they're choosing to be there and not be with their child, that's going to keep them there because they're going to believe in what they're doing.
SPEAKER_00:That's an interesting point because it's almost putting a value on time, isn't it? So if you're going to deprive, this is a bit of a weird way of explaining it, but if you're going to deprive my child of my time, it needs to be purposeful.
SPEAKER_01:So
SPEAKER_00:there needs to be a validity. I suppose it boils down to when my child's older and they say, well, why did you work in the afternoons when you could have been at home with me? Well, I was out doing something important as opposed to, to use your expression, pushing emails around. I'm trying to think of examples where there are a few where I've had people who work for me that have gone off to have babies and then they've really surprisingly put their notice in because their sense of the job that they're doing, the level of importance isn't where they want it to be. And I massively respect that. I hugely respect it. Because it is. Well, hang on. If I've got to be away from my child, then I need to feel... And it's the same for men and women, I think, but more so for women. If I'm going to make that sacrifice, then it needs to be something that's worthwhile doing and actually has a positive impact, which is really interesting because... I've never thought of it that way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And interestingly, when my son was one years old, my husband quit his job. He'd been there for 15 years and he quit, took on another job, actually, which turned out to be absolutely awful. And it went back to his, well, he did end up going back to his old employer because the organization had changed and they reached out to him and said, you know, do you fancy coming back? Because actually this is the situation now. And he was like, He didn't want to be too keen. He was like, play it cool, play it cool. And he was like, yeah, I'd consider coming back. And he went back and he's done another 15 years. But I do think that it was pivotal. I don't think that would have happened if we didn't have our son. There was stuff going on for him. And he unfortunately took the wrong move, but actually it ended up being the best thing ever because when he went back in, it was in a different role, which led to a different path completely. And it worked out really well. But if it wasn't for him, I don't think that would have happened, honestly.
SPEAKER_00:Let's go for the jugular. You know, the typing pools and the secretaries back in the 40s and 50s, they were the lifeblood of any organisation. But now, even to the point where I read something the other day, where the whole thing around secretaries not being called secretaries anymore because of that stigma related to it, the roles moved to PA or EA. And now there's a real respect about around PAs and EAs, which is effectively what the secretarial respect was. But because of a word or a societal shift, it It's shifted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And I think this could be another topic, actually, around societal expectations. And also, I'm very conscious that some of the things I was talking about, about having purpose and changing careers and things, that in itself is quite a privilege. We touched on very briefly single parents, but sometimes it is a means to an end. You just need to earn the money.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that is a topic we need to cover, is actually what happens when the opportunity is not either through... socioeconomic reasons for for not having the exposure in the right education systems and those kinds of things because we're both fortunate and as much as we've had that grounding and experience to be able to pull on those but a lot of people don't maybe that is our own weakness in this topic is that we're looking at this from i don't want to say middle class perspective but that ultimately is effectively what it is and we've not even bought race into it right any of the other points
SPEAKER_02:absolutely absolutely wow more topics to come then there you go
SPEAKER_00:but this is why i love doing this because we get given a topic or we come up with a topic and we end up with about seven or eight others and it's i'm gonna have to go through the show notes now to make a note of all of these other episodes that we're gonna have to record oh there you go brilliant okay so i suppose the point here is for kind of all three of those areas so changing the fact that there's reduced career advancement opportunities for working mums, the element around guilt of failing professionally and as a mum, and then the challenges around career transitions for women following having children, that the key thing is to make sure that you're getting access to the right employer, employee support systems. And I'm not talking about just wellbeing. I mean, general day-to-day stuff that every employee should get, like coaching and development, additional qualifications or experiences and those kinds of things. Those platforms should be equal for men and women because the advantage of having those platforms in place to the employer is obvious because you're developing your people, which means you retain talent and it helps with the employer brand. But actually for women, it really helps cover those areas where they do experience discrimination and struggle. because of the fact that they're having kids.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's it for this episode of Why Not and What If, where the conversations get messy, magical, and a little bit rebellious. If it made you think, laugh or rage text your mates, job done. That's what we're here for. Got a topic you think we should dive into? Drop us a line at letstalk at whynotwhatif.com. Seriously, your ideas fuel this chaos. And don't forget to follow, subscribe, shout about us in your WhatsApp groups, on LinkedIn and come back next week for more brutally honest, occasionally unhinged and always human conversations. See you next time.
