The Art of Delegation in Business - Founder Syndrome & Letting Go

Leaders manage imposter feelings by letting go and trusting others.

Got a story or a view? Email letstalk@whynotwhatif.com
— we might do a follow-up episode with your takes.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Role of CEOs in Business Management
• 1:28 The Importance of Delegation and Specialisation
• 4:20 Self-Awareness and Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
• 8:51 Imposter Syndrome and Its Impact on Leaders
• 16:22 The Perception of Leaders and Their Vulnerabilities
• 26:23 The Need for External Perspectives in Leadership
• 35:23 Transitioning Leadership and Letting Go

Transcript

Siobhan: 0:00

Welcome to Why Not and What If? And I'm Siobhan Godden, a HR consultant, coach, and the one who listens through the noise to what really matters. Think of me as the calm to Andy's creative storm. Hi, this is Andy Cracknell, creative whirlwind, destructor of dull thinking and allergic to doing things the usual way.

Andy: 0:25

Thanks, Siobhan. I'm also a marketing and communications consultant. And this is the

Siobhan: 0:30

podcast where we explore the messy, magical intersection of life, work, leadership and all the bits we're not supposed to talk about. Let's get into it.

Andy: 0:44

So you faced an interesting topic of conversation this week when it comes to– I'm just going to be really blunt about this– When CEOs should just piss off out of the way and let people run the business. As I said, what was it you said? When CEOs need to learn when to stay out of the business. That was it, wasn't

Siobhan: 0:58

it? Stay out, getting their fingers over everything.

Andy: 1:00

That's it. Now to set the framework for this one, I'm going to throw in the James Dyson example because I worked for him years ago and he's an amazing guy to work for. I worked in their call centre in Malmesbury in Wiltshire. It was just after I left the police and it was helping people the hundreds, if not thousands of people would ring up and say, this Dyson vacuum cleaner is shit. And then you take them through a diagnostics and then they'd realize that it was because they weren't using it properly or looking after it properly. But yeah, so Dyson's a great example because I remember being inducted into the business week one of call center training and the ethos when you walked into their head office or what, actually I think you shipped everything overseas now, hasn't he? But when their head office was in Malmesbury, was that actually they made a point of saying to us that James is not the boss of the business. I think his job title was chief engineer, so he didn't have CEO as his title or MD or any of those things. And he... there was a sense that he had the right balance of he stuck to what he knew which was engineering and design research and development customer service operations finance he stayed out of he had nothing to do with it um other than main shareholder and everything else and that for me was really inspiring because i hadn't at that point had any experience of working for myself but i had had experience of working for people who just wouldn't learn when to butt out

Siobhan: 2:23

but what happens with me i find in the roles i do when i'm looking after companies from the hr perspective any Anyway, quite often they'll realize something will happen and they'll realize I could really do with some HR expertise here because they might have had somebody picking it up like an admin or the secretary or PA or something, picking up some of the admin stuff to it. And then shit hits the fan. Something happens and they go, oh, gosh, we need HR. So I step in. And I might help them with that problem or whatever. But nine times out of 10, that issue has come up because of the systems and the processes and the structures in place. And when it's a growing business, what happens is the owner or owners, founders, whoever, they've created a really nice business. They've got it to a certain size. And then haven't acknowledged that actually your example of Dyson, he is an engineer and a designer. That's what he's good at. Usually these people have started a business because they're good at something. But running a business, as you know, takes all these other skills. And they need to bring in those skills to manage them and they can stick to their lane of this is what you're great at. And this is how you've made the business as successful as you have done. And the challenge is getting them to let go because it's their baby. You know, they're so invested in it. Money investment and heart, blood, sweat and tears is really hard to let go of. They take accountability for everything, which is great. But it comes to a point where that's physically impossible. And they've lost sight of what they're good at. sometimes and then it's letting other people who are good at those things take have accountability for it and they can't while they're being micromanaged is not the right word but if all roads lead to the founder and you can't move for it you're kind of stuck

Andy: 4:12

this is it because and this is why I mean it seems such a fundamental principle of recruitment and yet one that organizations get so wrong all the time you hear that expression within recruitment circles about recruiting in their own likeness

Siobhan: 4:27

Yeah,

Andy: 4:28

yeah. Which is a slightly different thing to what you're saying, but it's relevant because the whole reason that you hire, so as a founder of an organization, the reason that you do hire, should hire, or maybe need to hire a managing director, a CEO, a chief finance officer, a CMO, a CIO, whatever, is because you need to bring a different perspective

Siobhan: 4:52

a

Andy: 4:53

different view on things because otherwise you're just going to keep chipping away at the same old thing, doing it the same way and not evolving and therefore your business is going to suffer. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there seems to be this sticking point that people just don't get it.

Siobhan: 5:09

No, and it's everywhere as well. I see it in every business, apart from the big corporations that are so large that nobody can even remember who the founder was anymore. because they're hundreds of years old. But the growing, scaling SMEs, I see it every single time, honestly.

Andy: 5:27

Yeah. And we see it as a community that we're part of, that we hear these stories in all the time. You get an SME that's starting to fail. One of this group goes into that organization because they've been asked to to help them out. And the obvious, the founder does not have the skill set all the energy the right energy to take the business forward there's a great example of this which i've lived and i'm and from recollection this is something that that particular ceo talks about quite openly so i'm not saying anything that i shouldn't be saying which is a bit of a show up for the books um and that is um there's a profiling organization i'm not going to name it um And the CEO over the first, I think it was two or three years, there were four investors and equal shareholders. One of them was the CEO. And the CEO was very direct about what he wanted to do, where he wanted to go, and how he wanted it to happen. And it just wasn't working. And it got to a point where we were all sat in a meeting one day and he threw his toys out the pram. And it was sheer frustration. You could see it. And it was painful because we all love this guy. And he, you know... he was hurting because he couldn't understand why this thing wasn't lifting. And I think that was the crunch point for him where he had that realization that maybe he wasn't the right person to manage the business. And actually he needed to get into his own lane, which was account management, sales, glad-ragging high rollers, that kind of thing, whatever that is. And he pulled somebody in to do it. And it was the right times. He's a great example of a CEO realizing, or sorry, a founder realizing, actually, I can't be the one to do this. Now, it was interesting because he is an individual, he's a perfectionist or a polisher. His subtitle is Chief Polisher. He says it all. And we, tongue in cheek, and with a lot of affection towards the guy, we're sitting there thinking, yeah, but this isn't necessarily going to work because even though he's stepping aside he's not actually going to step aside because he's still going to want to polish and perfect everything and he did step aside and he did a really good job of stepping aside and he let the incumbent is that the right word incumbent the incumbent MD take the reins from a more strategic perspective. There are people out there who realize it. And I suppose the question in my head is what kind of people are they and why is it that they can see it and others can't? Because I can think of another example where I've seen a financial services sector, an SME go into the ground because the CEO founder wouldn't let go. And everyone was screaming at them. Look, you need to stop doing that or you need to start. No, no, no. They weren't listening. And then the business went over a cliff.

Siobhan: 8:19

Yeah, absolutely. And I've also seen it where there's a takeover, like, um, A shareholder maybe buys out the other shareholders and then actually now they want to be more involved in the business and then they interfere and then it can go backwards, which is also very tricky. But to your question, I think it's a self-awareness thing. And we know when we're talking about what makes a good leader, self-awareness and emotional intelligence is probably number one. And I also think these people all need, and I'm going to say this now because I'm one of them, but they all need a coach. They all need people like us in our community. Yeah. Yeah. You need somebody to go, that label says, you know. And that's what the coach does. So that's one of the ways you can get out of your own way. But you have to listen. You have to be open to it. And I know a lot of founders probably aren't. But the successful ones are.

Andy: 9:29

Do you know, I was today years old. No, it was two years ago. And this is part of imposter syndrome. I always used to look at the boards of these big companies. Yeah. And think... And put each of those people on pedestals because they were some kind of godlike creature to have got where they are. Yeah, yeah, some kind of genius. They were so good and so clever.

Siobhan: 9:49

Yeah.

Andy: 9:50

And then I was working with a client a couple of years ago where, and I got into that contract through another consultant who happened to be coaching all of the exec team.

Siobhan: 10:01

Wow.

Andy: 10:01

And because I know the coach really, really well, it was difficult for me to make that connection between this client board of incredible godlike people to me thinking I'm going to call him Jack for the sake of privacy but thinking Jack's the one that's coaching them how is he doing that given all these are godlike people and I know him personally he's on my level kind of thing and it took a couple of months for me to process it but then I was involved in something where their director of strategy and marketing and communications and what not said she needed to get counsel from him and that was when the penny dropped because this was an individual that so that the director of strategy and everything else was a lady that I really admired and respected because I saw her in action and she just absolutely nailed it every single time like that level of conviction that confidence that ability to deal with whatever was put in front of her in her own lane and the fact that She said, I need to get counsel on this. And then I subsequently found out that it was from her coach. I was like, right, I get it. So there is no superhuman being. There are these people that are really, don't get me wrong, highly intelligent, very clever, you know, suited to that kind of job. But they're still not invincible. They're still not, you know... without fault or without need of development or support or everything else. So it removed the barrier for me, but I think it's because I've, predominantly dealt with SMEs over the last 15 years. That was the Netscape that I was used to dealing with was it's a bunch of startup people who are, I perceived as being very similar to me. Yeah. These godlike figures that sit at the top. I mean, the other example is a mate of mine. I've known him since I was eight. His younger brother is a senior partner or director for one of the top five consulting firms. Yeah. Yeah. i just know him as the annoying little shit that used to get on the train and go to school and he was a proper we used to call him boffin because he was a real really highly academic

Siobhan: 12:01

the fact that you call him boffin by

Andy: 12:03

the way but he was he was always really smartly dressed always carrying a briefcase i mean we were at a grammar school so we had to have a briefcase or well no we didn't have to have one but yeah he chose to have one but but back then and this is sorry this is the link i'm waffling now but back then i just looked at him as being some annoying little boffin who was my best mate's little brother but now i'd I met him two or three years ago. I haven't seen him since we left school. And he's now this, as I've said, you know, in my head, the stereotype, my God, he's at the top of the chain at one of these top five. And he's, he must be on easily a million pound a year. Like this guy's on massive money. He went to the universe. Oh, hang on. Can I say this? Yeah, I can. Cause I've not named him. He went to the university of Hawaii and studied theoretical particle nuclear physics.

Siobhan: 12:47

Wow.

Andy: 12:47

He did. He then did a master's and then a doctorate. or a PhD, he then, this is the bit that really pissed me off, right? So he was at uni for like five years or six years or something. And then they offered him a job to lecture in theoretical particle nuclear physics or something like that. He was lecturing for one hour a week and in Hawaii. So he was then off surfing for like four and a half days a week while he was just doing this one or two lectures. And I just thought, Yeah, okay, I get it. But really, like, come on. And then he came back. His career is incredible. He's been all over the world, worked for all kinds of organizations, but now he's right at the top of his game. But the point I'm making is that I no longer see him as that godlike figure. This guy, we'll call him Steve. He's not Steve, but we'll call him Steve. He's just Steve, and he's my mate's little brother. But for so many years, I had him on a pedestal. Like, this guy's just... We're way below his league or... social standing or anything else. And he came from a perfectly normal family, middle working class family. Dad worked in the, we worked for Barclays. He was a branch manager for Barclays and I don't know what their mum did. I don't think she worked. And his brother, my best mate, is a telecoms engineer. So completely ordinary, not exceptional background, but he's gone to this echelon of society that's very close to people like Elon Musk and people like, oh, just, yeah, anyway.

Siobhan: 14:18

But you do realise the more you, because my husband is, so he's dyslexic, we suspect ADHD as well, but he struggled in school, left school as soon as he could really, got his first job through his scout leader, he was in scout Thank you so much. but it's similar conversation. And it's actually a shocker to him. It's like, oh, they're not any different. They are just, they are, everyone is a human. They're not androids or whatever. I don't know what you think they are, but you create this vision, don't you, in your head of that you say in this superhuman person. And then you realize, oh, we're all humans.

Andy: 15:21

Who knew? But that raises a question, doesn't it? Because are the people like he and I who put these people on pedestals, the people that... Is there something about us that makes us see them that way? And is it that there are people out there that just don't? Yeah, I think so, actually. Because I think imposter syndrome certainly played a part in my life over recent years when I've been working at exec level and board level massively to the point where there have been days I've been sat in various offices all over the country, been sat there with my head in my hands thinking, what am I doing here? Like, these people are just... They're in the stratosphere and I'm digging dirt around on the ground. And actually, the reality is what I was doing was not digging dirt around on the ground. I was also in the stratosphere making some pretty serious decisions about core strategic movement within a business that could have either sunk it or seen it swim. Luckily, it swam every time. There's something about that imposter syndrome piece because I had a coach for a while as well. And I said to her, look, I need this imposter syndrome being dealt with because it's screwing me in these meetings. I'm just sitting there like a timid little schoolboy peeing my pants because I'm so nervous about the fact that I'm even in this room, let alone what I've got to talk to them about. So I wonder if it's that or whether there's a reverse where it's almost the people that sit at that level. No, that doesn't follow through. Go on, sorry. Well,

Siobhan: 16:36

there's two things that come into my head. One is that they are the people that have the opposite of imposter syndrome, which is a scary place to be because they have no concept of... They just think it's great. They're great. And they have no... Virgin or narcissists, but there

Andy: 16:53

is a... I was going to say, they're narcissists, aren't

Siobhan: 16:56

they? Yeah. Most narcissists have this, but this exists. But talking about imposter syndrome, I went to an event called the HR Big Meet the other month. And there was a lady on there, and I'll have to look up her name. She was a chief HR officer somewhere. I think it was a law firm. But she was saying that imposter syndrome is the new bicycle face. Now, have you heard this term bicycle face? It really struck a chord with me. So basically, in the Victorian times, when the bike was invented and everyone started riding bikes, including women, and that gave women the independence that they'd never had before. And it triggered all these things like they started wearing trousers, you know, those bloomers and stuff. They started wearing that because it was more practical than a skirt. And then they were cycling and meeting their friends and having coffees and teas and gossiping. And then, of course, the Victorian men did not like this. So they came up with this thing. It was in a paper or magazine or something called Bicycle Face. And it was essentially, if you ride your bike too much, you end up with an ugly face because of the strain, the physical strain of cycling and the wind and the wind and stuff would affect your face. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And I googled it afterwards and there is loads of newspaper art clippings from Victorian times and they've got pictures of this bicycle face. And then eventually a doctor disproved it and said, this does not happen. But her point of her talk was that she had an argument that imposter syndrome is the new bicycle face. It's something that they're telling you that you have yourself doubt and stuff like that, which is natural and normal. But it's almost like become debilitating it's almost like well you've got imposter syndrome here you go here's a plaster oh yeah that's imposter syndrome women get imposter syndrome although we know everyone gets imposter syndrome apart from the narcissist but you know men and women get it we just might demonstrate it in different ways but for a while there there was this whole talk of women and female leaders never being held back because of imposter syndrome. And she was like, it's just a new bicycle face. And I was like,

Andy: 19:18

wow. So you know me. I have to put my two fingers into the eyes of Victorian men who came up with that BS. So isn't it ironic, right, that back in Victorian times, men were saying that women would suffer physical, let's call it damage, physical damage from cycling a bike. where recent studies have said that actually women don't suffer from riding a bike in any way, shape or form, other than things like muscle strain, if you don't look after yourself, you know, all the normal. Whereas men, wait for the list, the risks from cycling can include nerve damage, erectile dysfunction and even impact on fertility. In your face, Victorian men, in your face. We

Siobhan: 20:01

know in Victorian times, men didn't suffer with that. It was always the woman's fault.

Andy: 20:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So erectile dysfunction was never the man's fault, was it?

Siobhan: 20:09

That could never have been an argument in Victorian.

Andy: 20:12

So the adjustments that a man needs to make is around subtle choice and adjustment. Making sure the bike fits properly. Standing up regularly. Oh,

Siobhan: 20:21

there you go.

Andy: 20:22

Padded shorts. Don't get me started on the Lycra brigade. Oh, no. This is the new golf. Limiting intense cycling. Mixing up exercises. And seeking medical attention. I'm sorry. When was the last time any of your lady friends told you they went to the doctors and said, I think I'm getting ugly from riding a bike? Let me go. Oh, that was the other one. Elevated PSA, which is to do with prostate cancer. Lowering and retracting symptoms. Oh. Wow. What's the tightest? Well, listen, I...

Siobhan: 20:50

Men cycling, I think, based on that.

Andy: 20:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We can't possibly have men going around on pushbikes and rightly so. I spent four years of my life being an avid mountain rider and going from Bristol over to Wales and cycling around Penny Fan and places like that on a mountain bike. I was proper into it, like 200 mile an hour down a hillside type thing. I was a mountain goat. I was... Siobhan, I was jumping off of stuff. I'm a

Siobhan: 21:14

friend like that, actually. It just looks scary to me. But you've got kids, so obviously it did you no harm. So you're all right.

Andy: 21:22

Well, but the funny thing was, and the reason I stopped doing it, was nothing to do with any of the above. This is one of Andy's little sidetrack down a rabbit hole kind of distraction things. We were going along the coast, North Devon Coast. So hang on a minute. Is it Minehead? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I need to look this up because if I don't, it's going to do my head in. We were cycling between Bridgewater and Minehead. Yeah, Bridgewater and Minehead along the coast. And at Bossington, which is further west of Minehead, there is a set of rolling hills and you're really high above the sea. You're easily 300, 400 feet up and it's a cliff into the water. And yeah, wait for it. And I was coming down one hillside at about 40 mile an hour. And I was in front of my... I was riding with a mate of mine. I was in front of him. And it was so windy. The wind behind me, but it was so... The speed I was going, the wind, I couldn't hear anything. And... I went down one hill, up the other side, and I saw the hill disappear in front of me. And I thought, brilliant, another downhill. So I'm pedaling like mad. And then last minute, I heard Dave, this mate of mine, shouting, stop, like this. And I was like, what? And then I turned around and looked, and I had a cliff face about 30 feet in front of me. I was going too fast to stop. So I just jumped off the bike. The bike went over the edge of the cliff and I rolled along the grass. I didn't get on a mountain bike again after that.

Siobhan: 22:48

Oh my God. Do you know what I pictured in my head? Is, you know, on cartoons where you see cartoon characters running off a cliff and they keep running because they haven't, when they look down, they fall. That was

Andy: 22:57

you. I have never been so petrified in my entire life. And when he got to me, I mean, he wasn't that far behind me, but when he got to me, he literally threw his bike on the ground, ran over, and he just dived on top of me and gave me this massive hug. He said, mate, I thought you were dead. Because he couldn't see me over the crest of what he was coming up. Absolutely insane. So yeah, so I used to be part of the biking community, but I was stood up most of the time and throwing myself off. hills and down the coast and stuff. But yeah, I've got kids now and I can't do that anymore because I was getting injured all the time.

Siobhan: 23:30

My friend still does it and he's got kids and he gets injured and he's in his 40s. All right,

Andy: 23:34

I'll go out and do it tomorrow then.

Siobhan: 23:36

I just think he's mad though.

Andy: 23:37

Anyway, we're getting too

Siobhan: 23:38

sidetracked. Yeah, this is a classic going off standards talking

Andy: 23:42

about that. Yeah, but the difference there was I pulled myself back in line. I didn't need you

Siobhan: 23:46

to do it. Yeah, well done. We're growing as

Andy: 23:48

humans. So yeah, so... What were we talking about? Oh yeah, people knowing CEOs and stuff know when to step aside. Yeah. So it does beg the question, right? So how much of it is driven by insecurity that they don't want to let go or driven by something like narcissism that they just refuse to let go? And I think You know, it's not rocket science. If you don't have that self-awareness and emotional intelligence to be able to identify that, the only person you're actually defeating is yourself because it's your idea, it's your business you started up and you're the one that's going to fail it.

Siobhan: 24:18

Yeah. And that's the bit that they don't see necessarily. And it's hard. It's a hard message and it's a hard thing to accept, isn't it?

Andy: 24:26

Yeah. And I think I was going to go down a sexist route then, which... What I was going to say, I wonder what percentage of people who make that mistake are men over women, because I would have thought that women would have more of an awareness around that, whereas men's egos get in the way. But then the flip side of that is in the environment that women are used to, which is a misogynistic environment, would women intentionally not do it because it would be seen as a sign of weakness by men? God, this is getting

Siobhan: 24:59

deep. That may be. And I also think really driven women, especially if it's something they've created can be quite controlling. I mean, you see it with kids, don't you? You can see it sometimes with mums. They almost don't let even the father do things with the child because it's like, well, especially when they're little, it's like, well, I know best, I know their routine. And it's that. You can see it in driven women in the workplace as well. So I think it's probably both, but their motivations for it are probably different.

Andy: 25:25

Yeah. Wow. Okay.

Siobhan: 25:27

If there's any founders and CAOs listening who want to tell us, then we can do a part two based on what

Andy: 25:34

what we know now that would be good yeah let's let's reach out and see if we can get some people who've actually lived that both those that have realized that they need to step aside and those who didn't and then the business failed yeah be really good to talk to people like that i think the other thing that's really important just to point out before we wrap up is that we've kind of gone on the assumption that people that are in that position that don't step aside there's something wrong with them that isn't necessarily the case it can just be Yeah, exactly. Which again is

Siobhan: 26:11

why having a, not working in isolation, because I think being a founder or CEO can be quite a lonely place. Yeah. um and i think that's the key as well to have good people around you and people that will challenge you that there's that critical friend

Andy: 26:27

yeah that's it yeah that's a very good point actually because that was one of the conversations i had with a client about a year and a half ago was we were in a we were having a conversation about something and there was an air air an air about her that there was just something wrong and i said to her i'm kind of missing bits out here intentionally but but i felt the need to say to her it's a lonely place at the top and i get that so So if you need to talk about stuff, you can confide in me and it will stay between you and I. And her response to that was, do you know what? I've been at the top for over a decade now and nobody has ever acknowledged that I might feel lonely or I might be

Siobhan: 27:09

struggling.

Andy: 27:09

Really? So sad. Yeah, it is. And I think sadly that's also probably more prevalent in women than men because again, going back to this boardroom stereotype of the misogynistic boardroom and this I've got another client that keeps coming into mind women in a position where they don't say anything or show any sign of weakness because that would that would be taken and used against them rather than okay the boss is struggling let's give her a hand

Siobhan: 27:34

yeah it's too emotional but also there's less outreach for women because that we were talking about the bikes earlier and you do see the light brigades gangs of 14 men cycling together and you can't blimmin well get past them that's a whole other thing but I always joke that the cycling is like the new golf although they still play golf But there tends to be these known places that men go to talk. And it's physical stuff because that's the best thing. Men aren't going to be sitting around chatting. Women tend to do more. So I get that. But then there's probably very few female leaders. And there certainly isn't that immediate go-to place that they can go and talk, I wouldn't say. There's a lot more than there used to be. There's a lot more female leaders groups and stuff like that. But it's not the same. It's not as organic.

Andy: 28:22

Yeah. OK, so this is a topic for another podcast, but I often wonder about that because you can just try to work out how to put this into words. So this is around the equality piece where you have a particular situation which is then spoken about a lot and therefore action is taken. It almost creates a fake environment. So it's a needed environment, but it's not organic. It hasn't just happened. It's happened because people are jumping up and down and saying women leaders need space or, you know, neurodiverse people need this or gay people need that or whatever the context is.

Siobhan: 28:55

Yeah.

Andy: 28:55

And I wonder whether that means that these spaces are either not as effective or are actually detrimental because there's a sense of we're only here because we've been told we should be here or this space has been created and we feel obliged to use it, but it's not what we feel comfortable with.

Siobhan: 29:12

Yeah,

Andy: 29:13

maybe. Wow. Okay, we'll pick that one up as another one. All right. The why not and what if. Well, it's simple, isn't it? If you're a senior leader or a founder in a business, I suppose the health check, mental health, no, not mental health check. I suppose the health check element of finding a structure to work to where you can constantly or periodically check where you are in compared to what the business needs.

Siobhan: 29:35

Yeah.

Andy: 29:36

And why not get a coach in? Somebody who can give you a different perspective, who's got a fresh set of eyes on things, somebody who may not even know the business. I had a conversation with somebody the other day. Who was it? I was saying to them, was it you? We were talking about, whoever I was talking to, I was saying to them, there's a challenge going on at the moment where people who are no it wasn't you I know who it was now where yeah so she's an exec coach one of the pushbacks they get is that they've actually only held a senior leadership role for about six months right they're coaching senior leaders

Siobhan: 30:17

yeah

Andy: 30:17

the pushback they get is well how can you coach a senior leader when you've got no senior leadership experience and when she said that I lost it because I was like what a naive arrogant way of looking at things like Senior leadership are the only people whose opinions and experience that matter when actually the most effective way of enhancing a business, a team or an individual is to give them a different perspective. And quite often, ignorance is actually an advantage in that situation. I was

Siobhan: 30:42

going to say, as a coach, you're better off not knowing about it because then you're not going to be given your opinion because... there's your mentoring that's different if you're a mentor fair enough but not coaching

Andy: 30:53

exactly and then we got onto the conversation around relationship counsellors who are single you know how can you be a relationship counsellor if you're single because you're not in a relationship therefore what would you know yeah there are so many backdoor assumptions being made there as to why that individual's firstly not in a relationship and to what experience they've got of relationships and it's It's a redundant argument and it's just childish. But yeah, it did. It really annoyed me when she said that that was the pushback she got was, you know, I quite often get challenged around, well, how can you coach a CEO when you've never been on board level? And it's just like, well, what's wrong with these people? Are they morons or something?

Siobhan: 31:27

They don't understand coaching, would be my response. But yeah, you don't have to have, in fact, it's better not to have the experience because you're going to you're going to step into mentoring space otherwise and ask different things which could still be valid but it's still a different thing

Andy: 31:44

there we go okay so the message is if you're a founder and your business is struggling do some self-reflection and get the right people in to one help you understand whether it's you need to change the structure at the top and or what you're doing but i suppose the key thing for anybody is just make sure you play in your own lane if you don't have the skills or expertise

Siobhan: 32:03

yeah

Andy: 32:03

to be a chief financial officer, then don't be a chief financial officer.

Siobhan: 32:06

And also acknowledging that it's not a failure. What you've created so far has been a success because of you. Now it's about the next stage it's not about saying you're failing and you can't do it it's about it's just about the next step

Andy: 32:20

it's like bringing children into the world isn't it they stay with you till they're adults and then they fly the nest it's the same principle because you're still involved with them in their lives as adults but it's just not in the same capacity that you were and when they were little

Siobhan: 32:34

analogy that's nice and it is like a baby for them as well so it's a perfect analogy